World of Coins

I have quite a number of old French tokens that include a small triangular mark. There would seem to be a few other different ones. I never really worked anything out about them - but with this piece - a recent acquisition - the meaning seems to be explained. The piece includes the name "PAUL FISCH" in tiny lettering and the raised triangle has incuse on it a monogram formed from a "P" (back-to-front) and an "F".

Does any know the meaning for any others ?

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Surprise! He's not French. Forrer says:

FISCH. PAUL (Belg.). Contemporary Medallist, residing at Brussels. He presented fourteen medals engraved by him to the Belgian Numismatic Society on July 2, 1899. He also undertook to engrave the jetons for this Society from 1899 to 1902. His Portrait-medal of Houzeau de Lehaic is one of his best works; he also engraved: Portrait-medal of Jules de Burlet, 1899; - Belgian Federation of Gymnasts, 1895; - Exhibition of Ghent, 1899.

I have noticed the triangle also and on French tokens, but without the PF monogram. I wouldn't connect all of them automatically with Fisch.

Peter

I had a look and managed to find about 10 other "triangled" pieces in my collection - all tokens of types generally similar type to the "PAUL FISCH" piece. The 10 all have "FC" with something round and solid (not outlined) above all in the triangle. About 3 of these 10 additional have small "CARTAUX" on one side - I guess you will have heard of this name "CARTAUX".

It seems I have no other little symbols on this sort of "French" token in my collection.

On this page...

http://www.jetons-monnaie.net/plandusite.html

which I searching pointed me to, put I had seen before...

I found more tokens with the "FC" triangle, some of these with "CARTAUX". In some places Cartaux of Paris is stated as maker.

I also found tiny lettering "E. KATZ" on the token in this image...

http://www.jetons-monnaie.net/p/jeton73.html    (from the section "Jetons à consommer - 2")

it says "Katz, Rue Vieille du Temple, Paris" was the maker.

Then to confuse things a little about the token shown at...

http://www.jetons-monnaie.net/p/jeton594.html    (from the section "Jetons à consommer - 6")

has the "FC" triangle on one side and "E. KATZ" on the other. The engraver is said to be "E. KATZ".

On last thing from the http://www.jetons-monnaie.net/plandusite.html page is the token at...

http://www.jetons-monnaie.net/p/jeton131.html    (from the section "Jetons à consommer - 2")

This shows a 20c token with "ZIMBERLIN" in tiny lettering on one side plus a rectangular symbol on both sides - these would seem to be a third maker's mark.

Surely the Belgian could design/make a token type for France. Two of my pieces with the "FC" triangle inlcude English legends and a British denomination... perhaps I should post pictures of them.

By the way - the "PAUL FISCH" piece just has bordering plus standard font text on the non-illustrated side.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Here is an image (both sides) of one of the British pieces I have that is "by" Cartaux.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Good fun penny token, Paul. Do you know what it was used for?

Like you, I read the initials here as FC, rather than PF. That excludes Paul Fisch. I first thought you were saying Cartaux was manufacturing these pieces, but am now wondering if you mean that the C in FC stands for Cartaux?

Peter

It all seems that the "C" in "FC" in the triangle is for "CARTAUX"....  so what is the "F" for ?

I tried to find out about the "F"...  I did not find an answer, just some mention (not quite definite - so no link) that this Cartaux did have a first name starting with "F".

The Monarch Auto Co and the "PF" piece are almost the same size - both would have been for OLD machine tokens.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Is this the same Monarch Auto Company  (http://www.monarchcoin.com/about-us)I wonder....
Can't find any UK based companies, just this US based one.

The thing to remember is that these tokens are rather old... 1910's/1920's/1930's.

There are some pieces with "MONARCH AUTO CO" and others styled a little differently with "MONARCH AUTOMATIC CO" - as though perhaps these two sorts are either from a slightly different period or a slightly different company.

I have a "MONARCH AUTOMATIC CO" token that also has place name "NORTHAMPTON" in the main legends.

The page...

http://www.pennymachines.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1391&view=previous

shows (in the first user image) a plate on a machine belonging to "MONARCH AUTOMATIC CO" of Northampton. No connection is made with the U.S. (although there was at some stage a lot of importation of U.S. made amusement machines into England). The English/French/German companies were game makers - they made electro-mechanical games with simple token acceptance.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

The French legend on the top piece 'A Consommer' (to consume) doesn't really go with the amusement machine theme.  Is the UK 1d piece the same specifications as the French piece?

Interesting to note that the US company I linked to have been existence since 1903 and to this day produce tokens for vending / laundry machines.

The tokens I have shown are very similar in size - about 18mm in diameter.

The French "consommer" seems to be about eating/drinking.

Other similar British pieces include "TO BE SPENT IN THE HOUSE" ... sort of... to be spent on things you can consume on the premises ("house" being pub, club or other public place with amusements)...  so in this sense this is a similar legend to that seen on many French pieces.

The penny machines link mentioned ALLWIN machines - these were a game and there are many small tokens with the main legend "ALLWIN" - though I have not seen any of them with a triangular mark. From a few other bits in the linked page - it would seem these tokens were used to operate the games and as money for the winnings/prizes.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Mmm. Cartaux is in the first part of Forrer. The only part I have been unable to download as pdf. Murphy's law. This is from an online copy:

CARTAUX, F. (French). Contemporary Medallist, residing at Paris. His name appears on a medal struck in 1889 to commemorate the " Fete des Vignerons " at Vevey, and on an advertising jeton of M. C. Defailly of Geneva, 1896. He also struck a medal to commemorate the 5oth Anniversary of the Republic of Neuchitel, 1898, and several Portrait-medals and badges of President Kruger, 1900. BIBLIOGRAPHY. - Revue suisse de Numismatique. 1892, p. 187; 1898, p. i86. - Stroehiin et Dr Lade, Catalogue de deux collections importantes de Monnaies et Me'dailles suisses, novembre 1898.

I think you may safely assume that FC stands for F. Cartaux. Cartaux seems to have strong connections with Switzerland, but Forrer calls him French. I estimate that the piece dates from 1914-1923. This is the date range of a long series of French emergency tokens.

Peter

I have some difficulty with the idea that a French medallist would sign that Monach Auto piece, if it was mine I'd not want anything to do with it....

I have done a few more images.

The first piece is silvered-brass...
Obverse - A CONSOMMER 20 (Centimes) and the "FC" triangle
Reverse - a harp centrally with DÉPOSE and the "FC" triangle

The second piece is brass...
Obverse - 2D TO BE SPENT IN THE HOUSE with two dot spacers
Reverse - a harp centrally with DÉPOSE and the "FC" triangle

The reverses are almost a match - it seems they just differ in the relative positions of harp, DÉPOSE and the "FC" triangle.

The two tokens are very much the same size.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Fascinating pieces. Thanks. Would the harp not indicate that they were meant for the Irish market?

Peter

I'd imagine that you specified what you wanted on one side of the token, whilst to save costs you could have a generic design on the other.  Odd the Irish harp side has the 'A Consommer' on the reverse, which is definately not Irish.

I also believe there is no Irish connection. One other reason being that I have never seen anything similar with a design with a connection to either e.g. Wales, Scotland or England.

The denominated side (though with variable denomination) is the standard/common-side design - one sort of for British and one for French.

There are quite a number of pictorial reverses in the series just a few are gramaphone, an archway etc... Though on at least some of the "(centimes)" pieces the design on the reverse is non-pictorial.

Perhaps all tokens in a particular venue would be of the same reverse and the nearest other place using that reverse would be many miles away... but the venues would not be the source of the ideas for the designs.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

The backwards P joined to the F is the monogram of the guy concerned.

The FC  is the signature for Cartaux.  They sign some (though not many) pieces as CARTAUX FRERES.  They are well-known for having struck many of the so-called 'brothel' tokens - the ones made of brass shells around a card core.  My opinion is that these pieces were either advertising pieces, or they were card counters, certainly some of the establishments were brothels, places of entertainment and gambling houses.  They also made jetons (these were literally thrown) for the parade of one Lord Mayor of London, and there are others that advertise London restaurants, an exotic dancer at a theatre, and a young lady who has an address.  Similar pieces are also known for Cape Town in S. Africa, and New York.

Paul Withers

Going back a few messages, I assume that the sense of "à consommer" refers to consumption of the token, i.e. using it up, rather than any notion of eating and drinking.  So it would be a direct equivalent of "to be used on the premises".

Peter,
The complete Leonard Forrer . Biographical Dictionary of Medallists, Coin, Gem and Seal Engravers volumes 1-8 are available for reference online at the University of Michigan.
This should take you there:

http://97.107.129.173/_SEARCH/refsearchbiodict.asp

Bob

To paraphrase what I've read on the net

Slot machines appeared around 1890. In 1902,a law was passed that banned the distribution of cash earnings, only earnings in kind were allowed,
such as candy or cigarettes, or "to eat" jetons. The token "to eat" could not be more than two to three times the initial wager which itself should not exceed 10 cents
(at first), and was to be used in the establishment where the machine was.
These machines were installed in various public places such as bars or fairgrounds. They were finally banned by a decree of August 1937.
Among major manufacturers were Bussoz, Beraud, Caille, Lecuyer-Mejeanne-Osswald, Loubet, Nau, Soukhostavski-Verdier, Valter ...
For manufacturers of tokens, Cartaux and also Katz.

http://www.identification-numismatique.com/t1067-jetons-cartaux

BTW It looks more like a Welsh harp! ;D

I got this FC today  ;D

A 1 Penny token by Cartaux...

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

I have now got another shell-card token and it would seem it may be by Freres Cartaux - see the entwined "FC" between the two dots on the reverse (also in the closer image). I don't know what the other symbol on the reverse could be.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Another consommer piece with a rather odd looking contraption on the reverse. French shopping trolley?  ???  ;D signed both sides with the Cartaux Brothers triangle mark.

Another Cartaux variety, quite common I believe:

I came across this thread on CoinQuest (http://coinquest.com/cgi-bin/cq/coins?main_coin=14690) today, this links to our page and appears to be a potted history taken from our page.

I'm placing this information here for visitors from that site to explain that although he remarks on the triangle mintmark FC, of Freres Cartaux, he did not pick up on the fact that this translates to the Cartaux Brothers of Paris.

Edit: Now known to be Frances Cartaux

My favourite FC so far  8)
And no I didn't colour in the bottle.  :o

Another FC

And another FC

Loriot FC

Rol Special FC
Consimilar

And three more FCs, for your amusement only  ;D

PS I think that Malcolm's "French shopping trolley" might be a 1907 Voisin biplane or something similar.  8)

Maybe so, but the shading is confusing, to say the least. Hergé did a better job. :)

Peter

I think you may be right, at least it has the correct number of wheels!

I am curious too about the Jeton Prime in reply 46

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6077.0;attach=37269;image)

I have seen many types and sizes of these, as I particularly notice them having seen them attributed to US Military which seems most unlikely.

Here is another Cartaux piece, with 10 and a large V on both sides, but curiously, also on both sides, the small Cartaux Depose is reversed. Brass, 19.1mm.

DÉPOSÉ is mirrored vertically, but CARTAUX is mirrored horizontally. This makes no sense.

Peter

SNAP!  ish  ;D

Coin aligned, same size, 2.92g, but with 'D' and '3' countermark on both sides. Made of something silvery, cupro-nickel?

The border pattern appears the same but it is incuse on my piece.

Incuse on this one too ;)
That'll be me and my scanner, we're not getting on well..............

I think the central letter on redwine's piece is an vertically inverted a. If so, the v on the brass piece could have been vertically inverted too. These pieces are really weird. I would have accepted a production error, but the same production error on two related pieces?

Peter

The fact that the figures 10 are the same on both it seems reasonable to suggest 'V' and 'D' are the correct way up?

We need elucidation of the letters here.

Bang goes my roman numeral theory I've just found an 'E' on ebay  :'(

Bussoz Bussophone  8)
23mm
4.94g
Medal aligned

A token apparently  for the Bussophone, the very first Jukebox machine.

The Bussophone was copyrighted in 1923 by Bussoz of Paris, France. Less than 10 units are known to exist.

Quote from: redwine on October 09, 2013, 08:56:06 AM
Bang goes my roman numeral theory I've just found an 'E' on ebay

An "e" or an "E"?

Peter

Quote from: Figleaf on October 10, 2013, 12:24:42 AM
An "e" or an "E"?

Peter

Capital E
Borrowed this piccy from ebay

Quote from: malj1 on October 09, 2013, 10:48:34 PM
A token apparently  for the Bussophone, the very first Jukebox machine.

The Bussophone was copyrighted in 1923 by Bussoz of Paris, France. Less than 10 units are known to exist.

Thanks for that Malcolm.
I've seen an earlier looking piece on delcampe.
I didn't realise Wurlitzer bought the rights to his mechanism in 1932 or perhaps that was 1928? 
See http://www.lepingouinmecanique.com/bussoz_112.htm
Another fascinating trip  8)

Quote from: redwine on October 10, 2013, 06:40:45 AM
Capital E

I think that settles the case for a D, rather than an inverse a.

Peter

Here's another Katz piece which I rather like  8)
4.57g
23mm

Another, albeit anonymous, aluminium '2' with the triangle mintmark of Cartaux Freres.

For some time we have puzzled over the logo above FC ? This one is the most distinct yet, but unfortunately it has a scratch through the triangle.

Quote from: malj1 on October 20, 2013, 01:45:07 PM
For some time we have puzzled over the logo above FC ? This one is the most distinct yet, but unfortunately it has a scratch through the triangle.

Have we :-\  Using advanced reconstruction sware I invented today I was able to get this image.
It's an upside down tree  >:D Or an upside down sphinxes head?  ;D
Or even better Janus upside down - this I like!  8)  The brothers heads combined  :o

A screw press? Took this picture in Segovia. Disregard the lower part.

Peter

Not all coin presses are so rounded in shape. Here are the coin presses used in the Khalifa's house at Omdurman (Sudan).

An im-press-ive array!

O: LE PARISIEN / B.V / FC in triangle with what looks like a shield
R: A CONSOMMER / 20c
2.34g
17mm
Brass

That is a very nice token for Le Parisien, a slot machine copyrighted in 1912 by Blanc & Lescure of Paris, France. Most envious!

I am still hoping to find a mintmark that is clear enough to magnify.

Sheep!!

I'll get me wellies  ;D

And only 3 mentions of Cartaux  ::)  Perhaps they got them cheaper?

Grapes!!

I'll get me glass  8)

Cross  :D

Ding Dong!  ;D

Here are another 13 for you, my lucky number!  8)
I finally got my PHD  ;)
ZZ are top! ;D

A nice selection of these consommer pieces.

I have noticed that many of these pieces are duplicated for the British market, the obverse staying the same but with the reverse legend replaced with "To Be Spent in the House" and bearing the denomination 1d or 2d in the centre. Many still bear the French mintmarks of course.

I have a selection of these shown here (https://sites.google.com/site/malsmach2/spent-house). This shows that a great number of the French slot machines were installed in British public houses.

You've got some crackers there Mal 8)
I particularly like the elephant  ;D  And the signal lamp, bridge, boar.....................  ;D
It would be nice to find an exact copy with different reverse................................

Here's a link to a great French site with loads of 'a consommer'
http://multicollec.net/1-mo-h/1h49
I'll have a scan some time but I haven't got much computer time today  :'(

Quote from: redwine on December 04, 2013, 06:50:39 AM
I particularly like the elephant  ;D  And the signal lamp, bridge, boar.....................  ;D
It would be nice to find an exact copy with different reverse................................

This pair are almost exact...

Quote from: malj1 on December 04, 2013, 10:50:30 AM
This pair are almost exact...

Very close!
Interesting that DEPOSE is skew whiff on the British piece  8)

That DEPOSE seems to be upside-down or back-to-front, or both, on many pieces - I can't imagine how they do this!  ???

I would have expected one stock tool to make the complete word each time.  ::)

I wonder if the upside-down DÉPOSÉ might mean something like: to be exported, not to be sold in the Paris shop. Shop staff could be told: if you can read it, fine. If it's upside down, don't sell it. That way, they didn't need to turn the token around. Mnemonic support: a ship flying its flag upside down is in trouble - common knowledge at the time.

Suppose you sell a token to Britain, where its value will be 3 d. Suppose that would be 20 centimes and you set the price in France at 22 centimes, just to be sure. Now the franc rises in value and 3 d equals 25 centimes. Enterprising spirits would buy up the stock in Paris and use it to defraud the British client. Not good business, so either you keep an eye on exchange rates all the time and remember which of your foreign clients uses your tokens for what value or you simply don't sell exported tokens in the shop.

Peter

Interesting thought Peter 8)

Quote from: redwine on December 04, 2013, 06:50:39 AM
You've got some crackers there Mal 8)
I particularly like the elephant  ;D  And the signal lamp, bridge, boar.....................  ;D
It would be nice to find an exact copy with different reverse................................

The elephant again...

(https://sites.google.com/site/malsmach2/_/rsrc/1385371662851/spent-house/Epa5634.jpg?height=200&width=199) (https://sites.google.com/site/malsmach2/_/rsrc/1385371701477/spent-house/Epa5634a.jpg?height=200&width=197)

And now the French consommer variety...  a real cracker!  :o

Some beauties there Mal  8)

Quote from: malj1 on December 23, 2013, 09:34:26 PM
...but why the cut-out on the edge?

Maybe to keep it from being used as an official coin or more likely to ensure that official coins could not be used to operate the "juke box".

From wikipedia: Coin-operated music boxes and player pianos were the first forms of automated coin-operated musical devices. These instruments used paper rolls, metal disks, or metal cylinders to play a musical selection on the instrument, or instruments, enclosed within the device. In the 1890s these devices were joined by machines which used actual recordings instead of physical instruments. In 1890, Louis Glass and William S. Arnold invented the nickel-in-the-slot phonograph, the first of which was an Edison Class M Electric Phonograph retrofitted with a device patented under the name of Coin Actuated Attachment for Phonograph. The music was heard via one of four listening tubes.

Early designs, upon receiving a coin, unlocked the mechanism, allowing the listener to turn a crank which simultaneously wound the spring motor and placed the reproducer's stylus in the starting groove. Frequently exhibitors would equip many of these machines with listening tubes (acoustic headphones) and array them in "phonograph parlors" allowing the patron to select between multiple records, each played on its own machine. Some machines even contained carousels and other mechanisms for playing multiple records. Most machines were capable of holding only one musical selection, the automation coming from the ability to play that one selection at will.

Peter

More modern piece

O: LE FUSIL ELECTRIQUE A CIBLE / C.P
R: BREVET POUR LA FRANCE / CARTAUX PARIS / C.P
25mm
4.91g

2.81g
19mm

A couple more Katz's.  T.J and D.B
22.5mm, c.4.7g

NIVNA   /   10 A CONSOMMER  FC inside triangle 
brass  18mm coin aligment 
Any informations about this jeton?


(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/842/bi9u.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/nebi9uj)

D E   FC inside triangle  /  20 A CONSOMMER  FC inside triangle 
brass  17mm medal aligment 
Any informations about this jeton?

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/834/enqn.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/n6enqnj)

These were all prizes from French slot machines exchanged for the likes of candy/sweets or cigarettes etc. These machines were installed in various public places, such as bars or fairgrounds.

The names or initials usually relate to a type of machine or the owner/name of the bar, arcade, etc., with many of them being untraceable today.

Slot machines were finally prohibited by the Decree of August 1937.

A flipper token!  8)

This one shows the slot machine that it is intended for,  8) unfortunately no name though.

Why do you suggest its a flipper?  ???

The cabinet is marked COCOA, which is what an anglophone would call cacao. A hot chocolate drink vending machine.

Peter

I think it is a type of machine very similar to this Allwin:

(http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/d46526/d4652656r.jpg)  (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6077.0;attach=45321;image)
Source (http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/an-allwin-de-luxe-with-electric-shock-4652656-details.aspx?intobjectid=4652656)

The top flash unfortunately is usually missing from most examples found today.

Quote from: malj1 on May 10, 2014, 11:37:26 PM
This one shows the slot machine that it is intended for,  8) unfortunately no name though.

Why do you suggest its a flipper?  ???

It's what we used to call a flipper.  You flipped the ball into one of the holes at the top.  If you got it into the right hole you got a prize.
What's the accepted name for it?  Yep that's the machine.

I have never heard it referred to as that. To me they are usually known as Allwins of which there is a variety of types see more here (http://www.pennymachines.co.uk/Museum/Allwins-1.shtml)

I shall have to watch for that name in future!  ;D

As I recall there were two types, the one where you twisted the knob which primed the spring and launched the ball bearing.  And the one where you flipped a handle with your thumb like the mechanical pachinko machines from the 1970s. 
There were a lot of old machines on Hastings Pier 8)

Quote from: Figleaf on May 11, 2014, 12:05:17 AM
The cabinet is marked COCOA, which is what an anglophone would call cacao. A hot chocolate drink vending machine.

Peter

Actually Peter, it's just five circles but I can see how you can get the word.  It has incredible detail.
So a 'machine a sous' token for an Allwin type machine aka flipper  >:D. Well not quite, it's the twist the knob type.  Or is it? ::)

This one (http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-rare-le-jeu-de-cartes-wall-4652652-details.aspx?pos=73&intObjectID=4652652&sid=) looks to have a flipper mechanism on both sides. It is a similar but rare 'Le Jeu De Cartes' wall machine, but this one has nine circles.

There are so many types of these amusement machines, including many variations of the Allwin, however the Allwin seems the closest that I have seen.

Some more triangles  ;D
And a horsey without  :'(
The 10c piece is the smallest I've come across at 17mm  8)

Several of the British pieces measure 17mm and are for use in the common Clown, Bajazzo and Allwin machines among others; these British tokens themselves often minted in France too.

10c CARTAUX PARIS
7.7g
29mm
Brass
Medal aligned

What a star  ;D

The star in various forms also appears on several of the British denominations for use in these machines; including those marked "To Be Spent in the House" I don't know of any significance though.

Maybe no significance at all. A 5-pointed star is just easy to construct. Draw a circle and mark five points, each 72° apart. Connect the five dots with straight lines, skipping one dot every time, so if the dots were numbered 1 to 5, the lines would run from 1 to 3, on to 5, on to 2, on to 4, back to 1. The 13-lobed figure around it is a lot harder to construct.

Peter

Greetings from Montevideo, Uruguay. This is my first post.
I am researching Mr. Cartaux because I found some Uruguayan tokens made for him.
I red all the messages some weeks ago and I found some contradictions and data that not convinced me.
Now, after two months of investigation, I can assert the following:
F. Cartaux is Francis Cartaux, not Freres Cartaux as a member said.
Cartaux, engraver and tokens minter,  was located in 6 cité Dupetit-Thouars, París.
And the symbol above the letters F C in the triangle is a burrel, a quarter of tun (an ancient measure of volumen).

I don't know if some members read the subject yet. If there is someone interested, I can provide all the information and sources.

It is a pleasure for me to write in this fórum.

Bienvenido a "mundo de las monedas", Horacio. Yes, Mr. Cartaux was a busy man. The address you found is in central Paris. The shop is not very large. It may have been for sales only. Making tokens is a noisy business and Parisians love to complain, so this may well have been the address of the shop.

We like research. Please post your sources. I am sure there will be an interest. Tun is English, not French. A quarter tun would be a hogshead and a barrel would be 1/8 tun (source (http://sizes.com/units/barrel_wine.htm)). These are measures, not objects, so I am a little confused. Or did you mean to say that the object is a barrel?

Peter

Quote from: Horacio on July 29, 2014, 10:23:10 PM

And the symbol above the letters F C in the triangle is a burrel, a quarter of tun (an ancient measure of volumen).

I don't know if some members read the subject yet. If there is someone interested, I can provide all the information and sources.

Yes I am very interested in this useful information and wish to know much more, so your information and sources would be most appreciated.

  (https://sites.google.com/site/malsprojects/_/rsrc/1380095108431/home/monarch/Epa2786.jpg?height=187&width=200)

We had wondered if the design was a barrel.

  (https://sites.google.com/site/malsprojects/_/rsrc/1380095108432/home/monarch/Epa2835.jpg?height=124&width=200)

Here is another type with just a round dot in the triangle with the FC.

Peter and malj1,

Sorry for my English. My language is Spanish.
Yes, the symbol is a barrel, "a quartaut" in French. "A quartaut" is an object and a measure too.
I have a nice picture of triangle.... it is from a Catemu Chile UNC token. But it is too large and I can not attach it.
Here you can see a postal card of Cartaux.

I found a nice image of his shop at that address:


I wonder if you have Microsoft Office Picture Manager? this has a very simple to use image size reduction method.

And here you are the key information: a link from the French Culture and Education Ministry. You can see all the information about FRANCIS CARTAUX. Tomorrow I'll try to attach the picture of the barrel. Good night.

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/marque_fr?ACTION=RETROUVER&FIELD_1=DOMN&VALUE_1=Orf%e8vre&FIELD_2=NOM&VALUE_2=&FIELD_3=INI&VALUE_3=&FIELD_4=SYMB&VALUE_4=&FIELD_5=loca&VALUE_5=&FIELD_6=Date%20d%27insculpation&VALUE_6=&NUMBER=2&GRP=30&REQ=%28%28Orf%e8vre%29%20%3aDOMN%20%29&USRNAME=nobody&USRPWD=4%24%2534P&SPEC=9&SYN=1&IMLY=&MAX1=1&MAX2=150&MAX3=150&DOM=All

Well, I can reduce the size.

That is good, the best image of the barrel that I have seen.

Thank you too for the link it is perfect.

Quote from: malj1 on July 30, 2014, 04:42:27 AM
I found a nice image of his shop at that address:


I wonder if you have Microsoft Office Picture Manager? this has a very simple to use image size reduction method.

Do you think this building is from 1900's? I think it is a 1940-50 building, constructed post Cartaux.

I think it would be much older, possibly it was renovated after the war but the chimneys suggest 1900 or earlier.

Quote from: Horacio on July 30, 2014, 04:49:36 AM
And here you are the key information: a link from the French Culture and Education Ministry. You can see all the information about FRANCIS CARTAUX. Tomorrow I'll try to attach the picture of the barrel. Good night.

Many thanks Horacio!  8)

A look in Google street-view shows the whole street appears to be of 19th century construction.

Unfortunately this is just beyond the limits of street-view and I have zoomed in to compensate for this.

Fundición de Cobre, CATEMU, CHILE, South America.
Struck by Francis Cartaux.

Very nice token.

I found another here (http://datoshistoricosdechile.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/la-compania-de-minas-de-cobre-de-catemu.html), a 10c token, in this history of The Copper Mines Company of Catesby (Llay-Llay)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M7MgJ6lLu1Y/UuvVy3v5IRI/AAAAAAAAEbM/-vx3NkoMUHA/s1600/fichas.jpg)

I especially liked this bit!

...and the income tax was nonexistent because the treasury was financed fully with export duties of nitrate.

Well, export duties are tax too, and reduce the income of the companies....

I have a second CATEMU token struck by Francis Cartaux: 20 c made in nickel. Catemu, as the token says, was a copper mine.
The 10c token, made in bakelite (rubber), was struck in Chile.

Horacio is right. An export tax is a tax also. Furthermore, what is politely called nitrate here, is in fact  ... uhhh ... bird droppings. They spread a certain aroma that even a tax inspector cannot compete with. :laughing:

Peter

A nice 10c Consommer token showing a racehorse, probably from a race game machine.

Depose inverted with FC mm. brass, 19mm.

This one is a 31mm piece with the tiny "FC" mark - likely a machine token.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Bought these four together on the "Braderie de Lille (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braderie_de_Lille)". Numbers 3 and 4 look nickelled, while 1 and 2 are likely nickelled brass. All are around 23 mm. I think the four are French gaming tokens.

I took detailed pictures of the producers marks. File names refer to the pictures of the tokens. Numbers 2 and 3 have a triangular mark with what I read as TC below, probably the mark of Thévenon & Cie., but I can't make out what is in the upper part of the triangle. Numbers 1 and 4 have a parallelogram shaped mark that is not clear enough to read. On number 1, the mark is divided in four equal parts. I would expect that this mark would also be used by Thévenon or a successor company.

Peter

The symbol above the "TC" could be a shape representing a minting press..  as seen above "FC" in a triangle by Cartaux....

The separator between "JETON" and "PRIME" is a "four-part diamond spacer" (and is used on a few British machine tokens that are nothing to do with France as far as is known).

I have several "JETON PRIME" pieces, but do not re-call the name "OTOMATO M.V.".

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Otomato is I think Turkish for automat/vending machine.

To me they all look to be badly struck mint-marks of Francis Cartaux = FC with a barrel above and all in a triangle.

I too have several of these Jeton Prime or bonus tokens from slot machines which probably entitle the winner to another free go on the machine.

Here below is one of my pieces this bears the FC mintmark.

Thank you, gentlemen. Since the small horizontal stroke of an F is just not there on the four marks, I think we should stick with Thévenon, who is known to have used the triangle TC mark. Nevertheless, from the (coin press) mark, it would seem that there is a connection between Thévenon and the brothers Cartaux. Otherwise, the two marks would have been too close to get past a judge.

I am still wondering about the spacer, as it appears only when there is no triangle mark. I am sure Paul is right that it appears on UK tokens, but since we know that Cartaux (and perhaps Thévenon) sold to the UK that doesn't tell us much.

Nothing solid on Otomato M.V. I suspect M.V. is a legal form of an enterprise, which would be a clue to a country.

Peter

I have a small bucketful of these type of tokens.  I believe they are in Research Station Alpha.  I do not generally visit in the Winter but should there be a break in the weather I might just venture forth...............
I think they're Cartaux.

I had suppose there was something about the "T" or "F" on these that made Peter sure of them being "T" rather than "F". From the images I could not see they were definitely "T" and I could not see that they were definitely "F". But Peter was likely able to look at them more clear than I could.....   Also wouldn't Thevenon ...  is usually T & Cie

So these pieces are Cartaux.....

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Quote from: FosseWay on January 17, 2016, 09:11:30 PM
Otomato is I think Turkish for automat/vending machine.

The Turkish catalogue lists three vending machine tokens that use the term Otamatik

Does it explain the MV also? The closest I get (https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategori:Faaliyetlerine_g%C3%B6re_kuruluşlar) in Turkish is Meslek Yüksekokulu (vocational school), which makes no sense and uses a Y, rather than a V.

Peter

No I can't get to an explanation of that term M.V. and I can only think of something like Manufacturing Co.

I do see that vending machine tokens are Otomat jetonlari

The catalogue is in Turkish with just a few minor English translations so I barely cope.

I have several of the JETON PRIME; here are two, the others are I know not where!

The first shows most clearly the Cartaux mark FC with the barrel above.

The second has a blob on the mark on both sides but FC can almost be seen on one side.