anonymous paisa of Jawad mint in Gwalior State

Started by Rangnath, November 15, 2007, 05:54:11 PM

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Rangnath

Not much to go on, is there?  I see 4 petals, three stamens and one sword on the obverse.  The reverse seems to have been struck twice. LIke listening to two different stories being told at the same time.  Nonetheless, I enjoy the confusion.
I suppose the coin could also be from a Kashmir mint.  Any other opinions?
At 8.1 grams and 19 mm, it seems in within the broad range of copper and bronze coins from Afghanistan in the 19th century.
richie

Oesho

The coin seems to have been over-struck with a 4-petaled flower. The under-type is an anonymous  paisa of Jawad mint in Gwalior State. See KM96-97.

Rangnath

As soon as I looked at Km 96 I thought the following:
     1. Oh, I see what Oesho means.
     2. I was only off by less than two thousand kilometers. 
     3. When I know as little as I do, making guesses is risky to one's self esteem.

thank you.  I think this puts an end to my assumptions that coins with follage and swords were minted in Afghanistan or Kashmir!
richie

Figleaf

You're too hard on yourself, Richie. I think Oesho's determnation is that of a grand master. It takes very long to get to that level. Also, the flower overstrike could be Afghani, I think.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Salvete

I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure that my own specimens of the four-petalled flower motif on coins of Jawad are not overstruck, so it follows that this four petalled flower design is also a Jawad type (two types, actually - and maybe there are more 'out there').  Mine weigh a little less than the usual Jawad coppers, but not much less.  I think this is a fairly common type of Jawad paisa, that has simply missed being catalogued by Krause.  There are others, of course.  The designs on these coins are usually simple, bold and aesthetically pleasing, so I have tried to get examples of all available types, but there may be no end to such a search!  The similarity with some Afghan types is striking, Rangnath, I agree.  But surely this must be coincidental, mustn't it?
Salvete.
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Rangnath

Since I first posted the double struck coin, I have collected the four-petalled flower motif Jawad coin.  And, as you indicated, they seem fairly common. 
The similarity with some "civic" coppers of Afghanistan is probably coincidental. I agree. 
However..
When I lived in Bhopal, I had friends who had relatives and friends in Afghanistan and whose last names reflected the Duranni historical ties.  I know , that was Bhopal and not Gwalior, but, who knows?  Who was responsible for the coin designs of Jawad?  Could there have been a Afghan/Jawad connection?  Probably not, but isn't it possible? 
richie

Abhay

Dear Richie,

This is in fact a Jawad Coin. Recently I purchased a lot of 100 Jawad Coin, and found quite a few Flower type coins in that lot. In fact, I had sent you a mail also, regarding unseen/unlisted/unpublished coins of Gwalior. If you look at Coin No. 8, it is the same coin.

Abhay
INVESTING IN YESTERDAY

asm

Abhay,
Another fantastic coin. It seems fresh from the mint - unused / UNC.

You have a great collection of unlisted Gwalior coins. Why do you not send them to Krause via numismatica (Aditya)? It will be a great service to the coin collectors community.

Amit
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Bimat

Quote from: asm on January 18, 2010, 05:45:13 AM

You have a great collection of unlisted Gwalior coins. Why do you not send them to Krause via numismatica (Aditya)? It will be a great service to the coin collectors community.
Exactly! The first set of corrections will be sent to tsm on January 24.If you have time to make a list of these unlisted Gwalior coins,please send it to me before 24,so that tsm will make appropriate changes in next editions of SCWC :)

Aditya

PS: Abhay,you have a PM :)
It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. -J. K. Rowling.

Bimat

engipress has sent me the details of unlisted Gwalior coins.There are about 19 corrections,I'm working on them,they will be sent to tsm this weekend.

Again,a request for everyone-If you have coin(s) which are not listed in SCWC,please let me know their details via a PM.Obviously,the coins need not to be Indian,they can be old or modern..

Aditya

It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. -J. K. Rowling.

Salvete

Hello, Rangnath.  You mention that you have friends in Bhopal who have relatives in Afghanistan.  You will be well aware of the history of the settlement of the area by Pathans (I think they are called  Pashtuns, nowadays, but I do not know which is correct).  I was surprised to read that there was a fairly large later immigratiuon to Bhopal (and Tonk) from the captured and annexed area of Rohilkhand after the 1774-75 Rohilla War, when Shuja made the Rampur state reduce its army to 5000.  A lot more left the areas that were annexed, and came under Shuja's direct control.  Quite a few of them apparently went to Rajasthani and central Indian Muslem areas, i.e. Bhopal and Tonk.  I met one of them at Tonk several years ago.  He was 7 feet tall and built like a brick kiln, and had been a paratrooper in the Indian army, who had accepted the surrender of a part of the Pakistani army after one of the Indo-Pakistan wars, which we all fervently hope will never be repeated, I am sure.  If you do not respect the Pathans (which I hasten to add that I do) you would have to fear them.  I also met some Bhopali muslems at a mosque there, but they were much less friendly to an outsider, unfortunately.  I hope to be back in Tonk to visit again the ARPI research intitute there.  They had two or three of the hand-written al Qurans written by Aurangzeb, and a number of teachers of Arabic calligraphy.  Wonderful!  Go, if you get the chance.
Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

asm

Quote from: Salvete on January 18, 2010, 06:11:45 PM
I hope to be back in Tonk to visit again the ARPI research intitute there.  They had two or three of the hand-written al Qurans written by Aurangzeb, and a number of teachers of Arabic calligraphy.  Wonderful!  Go, if you get the chance.
Salvete
I am not sure about Richie, but I have been planning to visit Tonk for the last two years. Unfortunately never could find the time and more importantly a motivation to visit there except for the beautiful palace. Now I have a motivation. I hope to find time later this year. Thank you Salvete for the information. Is the ARPI open to visit by all or does one need special permission?
Amit
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Salvete

Hello, asm,
I had Tonk added to my itinerary by my travel agent without knowing what to expect.  My driver and I picked up a guide with some difficulty, and he knew little about the place or its history, but he did know the 'movers and shakers' there, and both the ARPI and the Pathan paratrooper (Saheb Sher Khan Thakkur, if my memory serves me right) welcomed us without any prior notice of our arival.  The museum at the ARPI is well worth a visit, but check when the power is down.  It is turned off at set times each day, so make sure you are there when power is available!  The Shish Mahal is worth a visit as well, but give yourself two hours at least for the ARPI (Arabic and Persian Research Institute) and contact the Principle in advance, and ask to see those things that interest you.  No doubt you will be able to converse with the teachers, and that ought to be a great experience.  Enjoy!
Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.