Author Topic: Fake coins of Indian Princely States and Independent kingdoms  (Read 20478 times)

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Offline Figleaf

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Fake coins of Indian Princely States and Independent kingdoms
« on: October 09, 2010, 02:23:49 AM »
I hadn't expected to run into any coins while travelling around in India, but when I mentioned coins to a guide, he took me to an art and handicraft dealer, who produced bags full of them plus a few special ones.

I bought some of the coins from the bags and I'll post them here. He also showed me three special coins that I'll post first. I had no scales or calliper on me, so please take all measures as approximate. This coin is silver, about 50 mm. I think it is a machine-struck nazarana rupee.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 11:01:54 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Figleaf

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Jaipur mystery 1: fake Muhammad Akbar II/Queen Victoria
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2010, 02:35:57 AM »
The merchant had several of this type. The pics are of different coins of the same type. These coins were silver, around 30 mm (sizes varied somewhat), exceptionally well centered and somewhat larger and thinner than regular rupees. It seemed to me that the flan was large enough to show the whole die.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 11:00:00 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline asm

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Re: Jaipur mystery 2
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2010, 03:40:17 AM »
Peter,

Rule number 1 when travelling in India. Never never buy coins from a jeweller recomended by a guide at a tourist destination. I believe salvete can fill in more on this.

As for this coin: Machine struck and AH 1022. It does not gell. There were no machine struck coins at that time or even a hunderd years after then. I do not think mughal coins - even Nazarana's were anywhere near 50mm in diameter. I hope you did not pay too much for them. (The Jewelers are normally rip offs). Sorry to dissapoint you.

However, if you have the facts slightly off mark, this looks a lot like the Jahangir, Agrah, AH 1022 RY 7.

Amit
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 03:56:24 AM by asm »
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Jaipur mystery 2
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2010, 03:43:50 AM »
Don't worry, Amit. I didn't buy it (or the other two), but I did promise to identify them. I'll post the ones I bought tomorrow.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Salvete

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Re: Jaipur mystery 2
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2010, 09:30:11 AM »
Looks like a Jahangir Agrah Nazarana rupee, but as Amit says, it cannot be genuine if it is machine struck.  Whether Jahangir Nazars were 50mm., I cannot say.  On the face of it, it looks genuine to me, but I do not collect Jahangir, so you should probably ask Oesho about it.  Very nice, Figleaf, but I must not talk about stuff I don't know very well - it will get me into hot water!

Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Offline Salvete

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Re: Jaipur mystery 1
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2010, 09:45:16 AM »
This purports to be Sawai Madhopur, ino Shah Alam Second, RY 18, I think.  It certainly seems to be the full die impression, which would make it a Nazar.  But if so, where is the date?  My view, without seeing the coin, is that it is a forgery, probably cast, and of a fabricated type.  Did you notice the edge?  Filed and with signs of a join mark in places?  But again, Oesho would be better able to advise.

Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Jaipur mystery 1
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2010, 10:55:18 AM »
Yes, I looked at the edges. They looked OK. I am fairly certain in this area, since in my own area of expertise, the same forging techniques are used. I did a ping test and I would think it wasn't cast. The merchant had several copies of this type, slightly different in size, different amounts of wear and patina that imho looked good. Of the three, this one is least likely to be an imitation. Very curious what Oesho has to say on this one.

I am not surprised that you think it is a nazarana rupee. Thanks for reign and mint! I think I see a date consisting of two 1's and two figures that are the same and could be 4, 6 or 8 at two o'clock on the right picture, but I would like to get confirmation.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Salvete

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Re: Jaipur mystery 1
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2010, 11:06:25 AM »
It's that 'date' that is the problem, Peter.  It should be a regnal year - one or two digits.  It is hard to be sure, but in the pic, some of the strokes look more like shadows or discolouration of the silver.  The date (12xx) would be on the obverse, and I don't see it.

Oesho will be better equipped to answer - the chances are that if this coi exists 'in the real world' that he will have a good picture or even an example.  I have neither  :-[

Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Offline asm

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Re: Jaipur mystery 1
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2010, 04:58:19 PM »
Well it was a very similar piece that I was offered during my recent trip to Jaipur (which the seller confirmed were fakes). It appears to be circulating all over Jaipur. These may have been produced for making jewellery but some smart jewellers seem to be taking advantage.

Amit



"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Offline Salvete

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Re: Jaipur mystery 1
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2010, 05:02:36 PM »
In that case, Amit, may I make so bold as to suggest a topic name change.  In fact, I think the items were probably made to fool the touristy public rather than for jewellery purposes, as the quality would not endear them to a potential wearer - I don't see many beautiful sari-wrearers being seduced by one of them, anyway .......

Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Offline asm

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Re: Jaipur mystery 1
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2010, 05:09:02 PM »
......... I don't see many beautiful sari-wrearers being seduced by one of them, anyway .......

Salvete
Sorry again Salvete,

These are used in the tribal look Jewellery......known as "Pai no/ka Haar' (translates as a Neckless of Pai's) which is in great demand with the village folks........and mind you, the amount of silver and gold in Indian villages is unimaginable.....As a matter of fact, similar neckless of Gold are a rage with womenfolk in cities if they can afford it.....22ckt Gold and weighing from 100 gms to ........I have seen one weighing 280 g. and am told they could be heavier.
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Offline Salvete

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Re: Jaipur mystery 1
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2010, 05:23:17 PM »
Yes, certainly, Amit.  I have also seen some really beautiful necklaces made of 'fake' and real coins, both on the womenfolk and, in Pathan areas especially, also on horses.  This is reputed to be the reason so many very pure Rohilla rupees and mohurs disappeared from circulation in days of yore, having holes drilled near the edge and being strung onto chains to decorate a rich man's horse - or maybe camel - do you know if that is correct?  I think the one I remember especially was not Pathan, but being used in a wedding ceremony in Gwalior.  The original dies of Kishangarh (other places too, I suppose) were in use to make 'old' rupees, especially acceptable as wedding gifts, I am told, well after the mint closed.  Maybe still being used?  Might explain all the 'BU' Kishangarh halves and full rupees fetching too much on the coin market.....

In Tonk, I met an old soldier, who had old Tonk rupees as the buttons on his smart, double-breasted blue blazer.  He was a real character - remind me to tell you about him, one day, Amit.

I just did not think the coin in the pic at the top of this thread would be highly valued for that purpose, but probably I was wrong.....

Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Offline Oesho

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Re: Jaipur mystery 2
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2010, 12:10:09 AM »
Absolutely fake! No question about.

Offline Oesho

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Re: Jaipur mystery 1
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2010, 12:16:52 AM »
Another fabrication, obv. Muhammad Akbar II, the other side in the name of Queen Victoria.

Offline Oesho

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Mysore double paisa AM1221, Fake
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2010, 11:18:34 AM »
In the series of Mysore some very deceptive forgeries appearing on the market. Sets of double, single, 1/2, 1/4. 1/8 and 1/16 rupee are often being offered. Even unseen, one can say that 99.9% of such sets are forgeries. Below a most deceptive specimen of a double paisa, AM1221 of Patan mint is shown, which is one of those recent forgeries, which have not even fooled collectors, but also renowned auction-houses as CNG.
Therefore be warned and be critical when such coins are offered.