Author Topic: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark  (Read 4599 times)

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Offline Abhay

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This coin shows a trident on the Obverse - typical for the coins of Gwalior - Ujjain mint.
On the reverse, there is a mintmark of a Three Petalled flower, found only on Rajod Coins from Gwalior state.
The same mintmark is also found on Jaipur Coins.


The details are:

Size - 23 mm
Weight - 11.33 Grams

Abhay
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 04:45:12 AM by Rangnath »
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Offline Salvete

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Re: Gwalior - Malwa type unidentified coin - With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2010, 09:39:39 AM »
I think you have it about right when you suggest Gwalior.  However, having said that, we all know there were a lot of Gwalior and Gwalior-like coppers, some of which are illustrated towards the end of L&W's book, under 'Miscellaneous and Unidentified' and perhaps this also belongs there.  Iis usually agreed that most such coins were a product of the deep monetisation associated with the 'Gardi-ka-Waqt' mostly in central India.  That is my best guess, but there isn't much to go on, really.  The double trishul says 'like Ujjain' but Mewar also had coins with this motif, and Lashkar had something similar.  Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer pick..........
Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Offline Oesho

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Re: Gwalior - Malwa type unidentified coin - With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2010, 09:08:07 PM »
I my opinion this coin belongs to the series, Salvete has so correctly described as Kachcha pice. The coin shows the typical retrograde legend (Julus is written in mirror image) often found on such pieces, illegal or at the most semi-official mint houses, thereby using a popular motif used by several (official)mints.

Offline Abhay

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Re: Gwalior - Malwa type unidentified coin - With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2010, 04:39:03 AM »
Thanks a lot, Salvete & Oesho for the replies.

I think, then this coin can be appropriately placed under "Hybrid Coins" under Kachcha Pice, with one side from Ujjain/Lashkar 'married' to Three petalled flower from Rajod on the other side.

Abhay
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Offline Rangnath

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Re: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2010, 04:51:29 AM »
I like the expression Kachcha Pice.  Hybrid though, I'm more conflicted. The term "hybrid" could mean "something in between" or even "something of an improvement", as in "hybrid" seed vigor or a hybrid bicycle (a cross between a racing and road bike for example).  But "Kachcha"... to my English speaking ears sounds a little like "I got you"  or "I gotya".  And these coins can really do that. I go off thinking "Hey, I found an unlisted copper of Gwalior and then BANG.. Kachcha!
richie

Offline Abhay

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Re: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2010, 05:05:01 AM »
Richie, I was just refering to the yet unpublished article by Salvete on "The 'Kachcha Pice' of late 18th and 19th Century Malwa". Just to repeat the meaning of Kachacha Paisa as given in the Artcle by Salvete (I am taking this liberty to insert the meaning of Kachcha Pice here with full Acknowledgements to Salvete):

“Cutcha Pice:  generally means one of those amorphous coppers, current in up-country bazars at varying rates of value.”  ‘Hobson-Jobson’. Yule, H. 1886, reprinted by Wordsworth Editions Ltd, Ware (UK) 1996, p. 287.
      “Pucka Pice:  a double copper coin formerly in use; also a proper pice (=1/4 anna) from the Government mints.”  Hobson-Jobson.
  The Hindi word spelled ‘cutcha’ in Hobson-Jobson is nowadays more often and more accurately transliterated as ‘Kachcha.’  Its meaning is ‘Not Pukkah,’ a description familiar to and readily understood by speakers of most brands of the English language.


It is a very interesting article by Salvete on the various crude copper coins found in Malwa region.

Abhay
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Offline Rangnath

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Re: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2010, 06:08:59 AM »
Dear Engipress,
Our friend Richie has many problems.  A lack of fluency in Hindi is the least of them.  While he would like to respond to your post, he is currently in the kitchen hitting his head against the granite table. I must say, I wish that he would keep the noise down. 
He was trying to be funny. I keep telling him that mostly he is just "Trying" as in "trying one's patience" with his poorly worded bi-lingual joke.  However, as I keep telling him, to tell a bi-lingual joke, you have to be bi-lingual. 
Anyway, the concept of Kachcha and Pukkah coins is an eye opener.  We are learning a lot at this site, aren't we?  Thank you Salvete and thank you Oesho. And thank you Abhay for enduring Moderator Richie. By the way, he did say, before he began to clobber his head, that he thinks that you, Abhay, have some incredibly cool coins.
Nehemia

Offline Salvete

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Re: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2010, 10:14:48 AM »
Hello, Rangnath, please tell Richie, when he wakes from his self-induced stupor, that he really is appreciated here, and that his jokes will never seem funny to everybody (humour does not always cross international borders intact), but some of us laugh out loud (in a good way) when we read some of his imaginative posts.  Probably his Hindi is as good as most of us can manage, and a million times better than any foreigner can ever hope to.

On a more serious note, I would advise anybody who does not have a copy of Hobson-Jobson to go to Amazon, where it is usually available for a few euros, dollars or pounds.  Most Indians will find less in it to get excited about, but for the rest of us it is a really valuable tool, and very cheap to get.  Who in America or Europe know what a MOOCHY is, for instance?  Or Majoon?  Or even Hobson-Jobson!?

By the way, when that article mentioned by Abhay is published, I will welcome any feedback about the material, as it is a very new topic for me, and there are already a few things in it, that I have come to know about since it was sent off to the ONS, that are wrong with it.  I hope to make further studies of this subject and these coins, so any comments will be very welcome.  Any offers of assistance with obtaining a few of these cheap, unwanted, unpopular coins, or detailing their find-spots would also be welcomed.  At least they are never very expensive - and who can say that about his favourite coins?


By the way, granite is very expensive to replace, and impossible to mend.

Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Offline Coinsforever

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Re: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2011, 02:51:58 AM »
Richie, I was just refering to the yet unpublished article by Salvete on "The 'Kachcha Pice' of late 18th and 19th Century Malwa". Just to repeat the meaning of Kachacha Paisa as given in the Artcle by Salvete (I am taking this liberty to insert the meaning of Kachcha Pice here with full Acknowledgements to Salvete):

“Cutcha Pice:  generally means one of those amorphous coppers, current in up-country bazars at varying rates of value.”  ‘Hobson-Jobson’. Yule, H. 1886, reprinted by Wordsworth Editions Ltd, Ware (UK) 1996, p. 287.
      “Pucka Pice:  a double copper coin formerly in use; also a proper pice (=1/4 anna) from the Government mints.”  Hobson-Jobson.
  The Hindi word spelled ‘cutcha’ in Hobson-Jobson is nowadays more often and more accurately transliterated as ‘Kachcha.’  Its meaning is ‘Not Pukkah,’ a description familiar to and readily understood by speakers of most brands of the English language.


It is a very interesting article by Salvete on the various crude copper coins found in Malwa region.

Abhay

May I request for full article if possible , appreciate response.
In another post Rangnath also appreciating of this article
http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,6116.msg56109.html#msg56109

Cheers ;D
Every experience, good or bad, is a priceless collector's item.



http://knowledge-numismatics.blogspot.in/

Offline Oesho

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Re: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2011, 11:58:11 AM »
As you are residing in India, please contact the Regional Secretary for India of the Oriental Numismatic Society, Mr. Dilip Rajgor. drajgor@hotmail.com. Join the ONS and request for the issue JONS#203. The article is not online.

Offline Coinsforever

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Re: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2011, 12:54:51 PM »
Many Thanks for advice , Oesho.

Cheers ;D
Every experience, good or bad, is a priceless collector's item.



http://knowledge-numismatics.blogspot.in/

Offline Salvete

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Re: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2011, 09:29:12 AM »
Please don't expect too much, Ajay.  The whole subject is still very much a 'work in progress,' and there is much that remains uncertain.

Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Offline Coinsforever

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Re: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2011, 11:04:53 AM »
Salvete ,

I am curious  ??? about subject and it is for my academic knowledge  :D , I am also reading your article : Some aspects of the History and Coinage of the Panna Area.

Will give you feedback , no worry I am not researcher only amateur collector  ;D .

Thanks for guidance and contribution to Numismatics.

Cheers ;D
Every experience, good or bad, is a priceless collector's item.



http://knowledge-numismatics.blogspot.in/

Offline Salvete

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Re: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2011, 11:10:53 AM »
Thanks, Ajay, I would very much welcome any feedback you care to send.  We shall only move forward with our studies by sharing our findings, ideas and criticisms, I think.  I will be eager to know what can be corrected, questioned and added to anything I have worked on, or am working on.  Thanks again.

Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Offline Oesho

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Re: Kachcha Pice: Gwalior/Malwa copper- With Rajod Type Mintmark
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2011, 12:32:46 PM »
Salvete is too modest in his reply. The article on the Kachcha copper coins provides a complete new approach to the production and use of the large amounts of different type coppers, in particular the area of Malwa.