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States of the church, KM 1344, 2 baiocchi 1850, Rome mint

Started by Figleaf, February 14, 2010, 12:38:41 AM

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Figleaf

This one is more familiar and I can read almost everything. It is struck in a collar with good machinery.

obv: PIVS ... PON. MAX.ANN.II
rev: 2 baiocchi 1850 R(oma)

The "V" in PIVS looks really archaic...

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

andyg

Of course at that time the Pope controlled a lot more of Italy than just the Vatican, so rather than being a Vatican issue it's more of a Papal issue...

Figleaf

#2
True, but I don't like Papal states either. Wikipedia has several alternatives. I like States of the church (Stati della Chiesa) best, as it represents better who owned the lands.

Peter


An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Figleaf

So this must be KM 1344, 35 mm, 20 gr.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

translateltd

"Papal States" is what they were called in English, so it's not much point arguing about it at this late stage :-)


Figleaf

I am not asking you or anyone else to see the error of your ways :D

The land never belonged to the pope. It was not inherited by the family of the pope. It belonged to the church. It was only ruled by the pope, whoever he was, for the church. If the Italians can get it right, maybe some anglophones can shed their ignorance of papal affairs some day ;D

HA!

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Harald

Quote from: Figleaf on February 14, 2010, 12:14:12 PM
The land never belonged to the pope. It was not inherited by the family of the pope.

How could the pope inherit something without breaching celibacy  ;D

http://www.liganda.ch (monetary history & numismatic linguistics)

translateltd

Quote from: Figleaf on February 14, 2010, 12:14:12 PM
I am not asking you or anyone else to see the error of your ways :D

The land never belonged to the pope. It was not inherited by the family of the pope. It belonged to the church. It was only ruled by the pope, whoever he was, for the church. If the Italians can get it right, maybe some anglophones can shed their ignorance of papal affairs some day ;D



And the Pope was the head of the church ...


chrisild

In German that country is called Kirchenstaat, ie. State of the Church. Now I could be nitpicking and say that this term does not say which church. ;D Anyway, the Italian name that is actually used on coins from that country is "Stato Pontificio". And if we translate that into English ...

Christian

andyg

It's only the later coins, issued after the unification of Italy, which had the "Stato Pontificio" legend though.

translateltd

Quote from: chrisild on February 14, 2010, 07:01:38 PM
In German that country is called Kirchenstaat, ie. State of the Church. Now I could be nitpicking and say that this term does not say which church. ;D Anyway, the Italian name that is actually used on coins from that country is "Stato Pontificio". And if we translate that into English ...

Christian

Ah yes, the State of Bridge Builders ...


Harald

Quote from: chrisild on February 14, 2010, 07:01:38 PM
In German that country is called Kirchenstaat, ie. State of the Church. Now I could be nitpicking and say that this term does not say which church.
That's probably the reason for the two names, for Catholics the "State of the Church" is obvious, while for the others it's the "State of the Pope". I haven't
found any reference for this distinction, however. The earliest name used was "Patrimonium Petri" (strictly speaking only for the region of Rome, today's Lazio).

The name "stato pontificio" (which BTW rather means "State of Papacy" than "State of the Pope") is a secular one, and probably only used in modern times.
And today's name, of course, does not refer to St. Peter, nor the Church nor the Pope, but simply to geography.

cheers
--
Harald
http://www.liganda.ch (monetary history & numismatic linguistics)

Enlil

Anyone know what a 2 baiocchi coin could buy back the?