Prince-bishopric of Liege

[Adilson]

I bought this coin, but I never found a reference for it. I sent the coin on the Numista website and it was registered as Prince-bishopric of Liege, but they didn't put a reference either.
I believe this coin is rare, if anyone has a catalog reference please show me. I have never found another coin like mine.


Numista link
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces365975.html

[Figleaf]

You did not include the diameter of your coin, so I cannot determine it. It may not be the same as the coin on Numista. Please let me know. It should be either around 23 or around 22 mm. I think yours is the larger diameter, but I am not sure. Keep in mind that on older coins, diameter varies and coins are often not round, making weight more important than diameter.

On the portrait side, just right of 12 o'clock is the vague silhouet of an acorn. This is the mintmark of Maaseik (Maas is the name of a river, eik is oak in Dutch, hence the acorn).

This is a good way to understand why we are asking for weight and diameter if you are asking for an identification. See here for the other recommendations.

Peter

[Adilson]

Hi Peter, the Numista coin is mine, so you can use its weight and diameter.

[Figleaf]

Sorry, that doesn't help much. The coin on Numista is 22.5 mm, which is on equal distance with the two variants. Please measure again as precise as you can.

Peter

[Adilson]

I measured the coin again, it is 24.5mm

[Adilson]

It's been a few years since I registered the coin on Numista, it still has number 97, which means it's still unique on the site

[Adilson]

When I bought this coin it had this description, but I couldn't confirm it.
IMPERIAL STAVELOT ABBEY - MALMEDY 12 SOLS BRULE ( 1/2 AIDANT OR GIGOT )

[Figleaf]

OK, on the theory that coins are more likely to be too small, rather than too large, I am willing to say that it is likely that this is Luik/Liège Vanhoudt G1221, Van der Chijs 555, brûlé of 12 sous 1586, Maaseik mint. Legends as on Numista, i.e obverse legend on the reverse and vice versa, so it is the same coin as the one on Numista. A switch-over legend is nothing special in these times. The legends were added by less experienced engravers who made more mistakes. In Vanhoudt, the legend is slightly different:

ERNESTvs.BAvariae.DVX(annulet)EPiscopvs.LEodivm.DVX.Bullionensis.COmes.LOoS
ADIATVR et ALTERA PARS means: the other side must be heard also

Only the capitals are on the coin. Same reasoning as switching legends.

This coin has nothing to do with Stavelot. Stavelot had only abbesses. It is common in Belgium, where detector pilots still find them.

Peter

[Figleaf]

I see now "XII" below the shield. That is the denomination of 12 sous and it makes it certain that the id I gave above is correct.

Peter

[Adilson]

Okay, Peter.
I always had doubts about currency.
Now I'll be calm.
thanks

[Pellinore]

I'm surprised there was a mint at Maaseik, a small town at the left (Belgian) side of the river Maas (Meuse), that I'm going to visit next week. It is only seven miles from Thorn, a village holding an imperial abbey that brought great wealth and Great Politics in Early Modern times. Thorn also minted coins, I was there a year ago. 

By the way, Stevensweert, a fortress town between Thorn and Maaseik on a in the middle of the Maas, also minted coins. Interesting coins in politically turbulent times with Spanish and Dutch overlords fighting and the Holy Roman Empire joining the mêlée.

-- Paul

[Figleaf]

It's not a coincidence. The situation was politically fraught, with three parties waging economic warfare. A number of small, nominally independent lords along the Meuse river (ab)used that situation to establish their own mint. A separate group had received minting rights from the German emperor as a source of income: Thorn and Stavelot.

The three groups were:
a) the Republic, protestant and unwilling to stem the flow of lightweight coins by taking on the other two.
b) the Habsburg family, catholic and direct or indirect owners of the Southern Netherlands, emperors of Germany by traditional bribery of the electors, claiming ownership of the Republic until 1648, with branches in Austria and Spain.
c) the Wittelsbach family, catholic and electors of Bavaria and the Pfalz (two votes, two bribes), by traditional bribery archbishops of Cologne, prince-bishops of Liège/Luik.

In "normal" times, the small independent lords coined lightweight stuff that looked like coins of the Republic, aided and abetted by Habsburg, Luik/Liège made coins that weighed less than the coins of the Southern Netherlands but were tariffed at par with them and the Republic issued one Placcaet (law or regulation) after another against the lightweight coins without much effect.

A real effect is that the coppers of the "Haegemunters" are still relatively common and usually badly struck.

The Republic did get their hands on a careless minter from time to time and hanged them for their sins, though. Habsburg eventually subdued Liège/Luik, ending their mintage altogether with a complaint about lightweight coins to the emperor (what a coincidence: also a Habsburg).

Peter

[Pellinore]

Back from Maaseik... It is an adorable little town centered about a square with a large sculpture of the brothers Van Eyck, the brilliant 15th century painters who hailed from the town.



Apart from this, there's a church with a superb little museum that (normally) houses the oldest manuscript (8th century AD) written in Belgium (but it was 'temporarily' in a library for conservation). However, there were some unbelievably old textiles (8th-9th century AD), parts of chasubles and other religious valuables. Some of these produced in Bukhara, coming to Europe by the Silk Road Express!



Sorry if I'm intruding into this coin thread. Coins are part of life...

-- Paul

[Figleaf]

Some of these produced in Bukhara, coming to Europe by the Silk Road Express!

Sorry if I'm intruding into this coin thread. Coins are part of life...

What would a coin be without life? The textile is not so likely to have been produced in Bukhara. Silk was a Chinese monopoly and the mulberry requires more water than even the great Bukhara oasis had to spare. It is quite likely to have been traded in Bukhara, though.

The traditional route would have been from China to Bukhara across the Pamir by camel. It would be traded, sorted and stored there by wholesalers, who'd have agents in friendly Eastern Mediterranean ports, so they would know when to ship what silk. From those ports, it would have gone to Venice on ship. There, it would have been sent across the Alps to e.g. Augsburg by donkey or cart, where retailers and travelling salesmen (many Jewish) would ship it through to the market cities, including those in the Netherlands. All the while, the middle men would take a slice and the markets would take a tax, so of course there is a numismatic angle!

Peter