Türgesh qaghanate, 699-766

[Desibot]

Hi guys help I'd lthis please

Thankyou in advance

[mkm1968]

https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=48341

[Figleaf]

Thank you mkm! Zeno's specimen is eye-popping.

For the record: Semirech'e, Türgesh qaghan, 712?-737/8, in Chinese: Sulu 蘇祿
Obv.: In soghdian script: βγy twrkyš x'γ'n pny
Rev.: Runic tamgha

Zeno 48341
Numista --

Peter

[Guillaume Hermann]

                 I love it so much!

[Offa]

Looks Malay peninsula to me is it tin or bronze if it's tin then it's more than likely Malay

[Manzikert]

No, definitely bronze, from Semireche.

Alan

[Figleaf]

The coins from the Malay peninsula you are thinking of were practically all inscribed in Arabic. This bronze coin is inscribed in Bactrian, a script that precedes Arabic. To remove all doubts, go to Zeno, enter the coin number 48341 in the box at top left and click "Search". You will find this reference in replies #2 and 3 above.

Peter

[Offa]

The coins from the Malay peninsula you are thinking of were practically all inscribed in Arabic. This bronze coin is inscribed in Bactrian, a script that precedes Arabic. To remove all doubts, go to Zeno, enter the coin number 48341 in the box at top left and click "Search". You will find this reference in replies #2 and 3 above.

Peter

Many are copies of Chinese cash from before the formation of the states,

[Figleaf]

I own a specimen of this splendiforous coin now. For description see above; 25mm, 6.38 grams. Smirnova 1589, Kamychev 24; ONS-NL 178, p.7-16.



Added a sketch of the tamgha, creatively utilising the contour of the central hole.



The history behind the coin is quite interesting. The Turgesh people (Türügeš budun) or Tūqíshī in Chinese were a Turkic tribal confederation, residing in Transoxiana, in parts of the modern Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgizstan. The confederation was  dominated by the yellow and black clans, which probably explains both the anonymity on the coin and the legend "Coin of Lord Qaghan of Türgesh", Qaghan being a title (Khan of Khans). The original population of the area was largely of Turkic descent.

The Umayyads in Ferghana were their neighbours and they were out to dominate the lucrative silk route between Kokand and Bukhara. That was against the interests of the Tang emperors of China. The Ummayads were more aggressive and the Chinese overextended. The Turgesh had a brilliant military leader, Suluk, married to the Tang Princess Jiaohe (plenty of Tang princesses around).

In 720, Suluk took Samarqand from the Umayyads, which made them unhappy. They sent an expeditionary army to Khorasan, with orders to end Turkic rule once and for all. As they advanced into the Ferghana valley, Suluk threatened them with a bigger army. The Arab army hastily retreated to the river Jaxartes, where they found a confederated force of Shash and Ferghana blocking their way to the river and safety. The ensuing battle is known as the Day of Thirst. The Arabs lost their equipment, but part of their soldiers broke through the lines and escaped. This bad loss caused an almost complete reversion of what they had won in earlier campaigns North of the river Oxus.

The coin was likely cast in the period 712-738 AD, during the rule of Suluk. In 738, Suluk was murdered by a rival and the Turgesh federation split up, largely along the lines of the yellow and black clans. Kül-chor of the yellow clan ended up as winner, but the Turgesh confederation was badly weakened. When Kül-chor had the Tang envoy murdered, he was captured and killed in turn. The Turgesh lands became a Chinese vassal state, dependent on the Uyghur Khaganate. In 766, the Karluks, another Turkic confederacy that morphed into the Qarakhanids, entered the area and finished off what remained of the Kurgesh.

Peter

[Manzikert]

I have had what I believe to be one of these for a while, described by the seller as 'Kamyshev 24', but ascribed by the seller to an 'Unknown Kaghan', c.700-850. 4.72 gm, 24 mm

Thanks to your post Peter I can now add more detail to this and narrow down the dates, and from the ONS reference hopefully add details to some of my other Sogdian coins. Of course, if I have misread it please correct me.

Alan

[Figleaf]

Great that I can help you for a change! Detail sources are Zeno, Wikipedia and the seller. The date range you got is wrong. My next and last coin of the lot will illustrate this further.

Peter

[Figleaf]

Here is the promised coin. Kamyshev 39, 17mm, 1.00 grams. At first sight, it looks like a degenerate copy of this coin. However, due to a new reading of the legend, it changed identity.

This type of coins was previously considered to an anonymous issue by the Tukhus tribe, though now the attribution is considered to be incorrect. The obverse legend has been re-read as wg'tm'i xwbw pny ("Coin of the Ruler Oghitmai"). This ruler was evidently the last of the three Kings known to have issues this series of coins. While the obverse inscription gives the name of the local ruler, the reverse inscription references the overlord Khagan of the Turghesh confederation, though it does not name him. He may have outlasted the Turghesh Confederation which collapsed in c.766 CE, since his latest small cash are one-sided, showing only his name and not referencing the Turghesh Khagan. (source: Alex Fishman)

Wikipedia maintains, documents in hand, that the last Turgesh khagan was called Ata Boyla, while the legend on the coin refers to Oghitmai, who is not in Wikipedia's list. So Oghitmai was indeed likely a local ruler mentioning the Khagan on the coin by title, not by name.

The warfare and internal strife after Suluk's death played havoc with the currency, dating my coin to the 760s, so this type (Zeno 309008, still identified as Tukhus) is a far cry from the heavy cash coins shown upthread. It is also not as well produced. It looks like the two halves of the mould did not close well, so some of the metal escaped.



Obv: Trident tamgha of Oghitmai and Sogdian legend: wg'tm'y xwbw pny ("Coin of the Ruler Oghitmai")
Rev: Sogdian legend: bgy twrkys x'g'n pny ("Coin of the Master, Türgesh Khagan".

Peter

[Manzikert]

I have this one which was also identified by the seller as Kamyshev 39, 1.55 gm, 20 mm, but which I find on Zeno also identified as K. 40 (Zeno 205153) and K. 43 (Zeno 251392, 223138)

The greatest difference is that it doesn't have the crescent below the trident, and there is a crossbar on the handle of the trident.

Do you have a copy of Kamyshev's publication, and if so could you please let me know his number for this one?

Alan

[Figleaf]

I don't have Kamyshev (yet?). I do know there are 3 sub-types, but don't know who distinguished them. I also have a fairly good numismatic network. I'll shake its threads a bit and see what happens.

Peter

[Figleaf]

I have an answer now. The three sub-types are distinguished by the shape of the lower part of the tamgha at 3 o'clock.



The difference between type 1 and 2 is in the length of the two horizontal bars below the "trident". See Zeno 22476 for a clear example of a type 1 or 2 tamgha.



Type 3 is clear, though: the two bars are replaced by a third part of a circle, filled here, hollow on my specimen. Mine weighs 0.6 gram. I think the hole was filled because of ill-fitting dies, so that metal could escape to the centre.



Meanwhile, Smirnova's reading "Tukhus" is contested

Zeno 243517, 320200 Numista --

Peter