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Variants of Turkish coins

Started by JeanPar, July 15, 2007, 06:22:59 PM

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JeanPar

Who does know the variants of these Turkish coins?  :)

KM 890,3 - 5 kurus
891,3 - 10 kurus
KM 893,2 - 2 1/2 lira
KM 832 - 10 kurus
KM 882 - 50 kurus
KM 962,2 ? 1 lira
KM 963 - 5 lira
KM 964 - 10 lira
KM 975 - 25 lira


KM 966 - 50 lira
KM 987 - 50 lira
KM 967 - 100 lira
KM 988 - 100 lira
KM 989 - 500 lira

KM 966 until 989 of above are of the same type. I have found 2 variants, KM 966 - 50 Lira of 1986. One coin has a larger image and one coin has a smaller image.  Are the variants of the other denominations the same?



Jean Par :)

natko

#1
I must support this type of topics as they're crucial in sorting coins for both type and date collectors. Sometime new type pops out of these.

I have just studied those today, to sort my Turkish collection. Ran into lot of problems. Books, sites etc list only varieties when they're within the same date. If year xy differs from xz, but they're under same type it will be rarely noted. Not only speaking about Turkey, but globally.

So, let's go by your list:

-KM 890,3 - 5 kurus - type not confirmed yet, just opened the topic.
-891,3 - 10 kurus - same...Turkish mint mention only 2 and 3,5g coins respectively
Anyway, varietes include closed (common) and open(rare) 4 in date.

-KM 893,2 - 2 1/2 lira - error edge, with one TC - TC inverted. Occurs on 1976.
-KM 832 - 10 kurus - Major variety! Side with date has considerably smaller (like 5 kurus) or larger image(like 100 para, where ear almost touches the edge). Smaller is a bit scarcer. Happens on 1340 and maybe on 1341.
-Just to note, it can be seen also on 1926 dated coins of KM#836. I consider those different and left space in my collection.

-You forgot KM#837, same story. Small is shown in Krause, larger is scarcer.

-KM 882 - 50 kurus - don't know ???
-KM 962,2 ? 1 lira
KM 963 - 5 lira 
KM 964 - 10 lira
KM 975 - 25 lira
KM 966 - 50 lira
KM 987 - 50 lira
KM 967 - 100 lira
KM 988 - 100 lira
KM 989 - 500 lira

All types from late 80s, as you noticed, smaller or larger design, sometimes touching the edge, sometimes further from it. Even bigger differences between years than in the single year. But not so big difference as you can find in those coins from twenties. I believe smaller coins (987,988 and 989) have the same varieties, but I'm not 100% sure. Still, it could be elaborated here whether it might be considered a different subtype, or just minor variety. In catalog, some similar issues are separated into subtypes.

edit/ there are some other varieties, like serifed and plain U in Cumhuriyeti, on KM#887 and dot after date in some 1951 coins of KM#881




Figleaf

This gets into the question of what is a new (sub)type and what remains a variety. I think it is a question of taste. Personally, I would count the large/small designs as subtypes, but large and small letters and serifs as varieties, but tastes will differ. Nevertheless, it would be useful if you'd make a list of the varieties you have fond, preferably with illustrations of major die differences, hoping that others could contribute. We could post an alert on the board co-operation with cataloguers, so the people at KM can take informed decisions.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

natko

Exactly, it's subjective. Some people consider dot after date a big change, some consider mintmark position change a different type, some even consider bigger/larger date diffrerent types even they collect by types. I don't care for those. My point is that same criteria should be used in such important catalog as SCWC but of course it's hard, contributors are not supermen and there are so many people contributing there.

anyway, on nice and very useful website http://www.osmanliparalari.com/ I found most of the info I wrote, of course with help of google.

As of the pre-reform currency of Turkish republic, there are several small varieties but this one is important. It's pretty simple, look at the 100 para piece, ear of wheat almost touches the top and root almost touches rim at 7 o'clock. 5 kurus have whole design considerably smaller. 10 kurus have again large, but smaller occurs on 1340, 1341 (they probably wanted to say that on their sigte, although I didn't find images for this) and 1926. 25 kurus is normally small, but large is scarce. I found an image few days ago, but can't dig it up. Also note slight changes in rim dots/lines. So here are photos from mentioned site, on whole coin image looks more obvious, but lazy to dig them around now.





As of the late 80s I will need time to google and compare images, also dig them from auctions.

natko

#4
As of 100 kurus 1934 we didn't mention here, there are even 3 varieties. Info can be found in Turkish catalog, but I don't have book, so found info here
http://www.definecilerkulubu.com/tc-madeni-paralarimiz/3344-100-kurus-1934-a.html

Small star -

Medium star and big star

There are three varieties indeed. But, design is the same on small and medium


Only the rim is different, obviously notches here are of different length. SCWC was right here, two subtypes, but don't be confused with medium one, big star design is much scarcer indeed and it's generally bolder, including the denomination, grass, acorn...

Another big star:

Figleaf

Good research! Now, how about summing it up in a little table (something like KM number, denomination, date, variety)? You could always expand the table later...

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

<k>

I wonder whether anybody knows whether these coins were designed by Percy Metcalfe? I've read that the ones from 1936 were (the Turks spell his name as "Medkaley"), but these designs look too old-fashioned to me. The wreath on the reverse in particular looks too old-fashioned - or maybe I should say spray and not wreath. I don't think Percy Metcalfe, being a modernist, would deliberately have included a wreath in his design.

Actually, there are some documents in the National Archives that would tell me, but the last time I looked they were lent out to a government department. On past experience these documents will never be returned. This is a pity. What any of these documents have to do with the business of government in the 21st century I don't know.
Visit the website of The Royal Mint Museum.

See: The Royal Mint Museum.

FosseWay

Am I seeing things, or is the portrait of Atatürk different on the second illustration in Natko's no. 1 (the one with the large star)? The back of his head seems to bulge outwards more than on the others.

natko

There are various minor varieties, at the Turkish forum I found those pics at least ten more were found. Without blinking images, those are hardly seen. I think only the rotation of the coin is responsible for the head looking more buldgy.

Differences for the coins of mid 80s are in wreath size (not too prominent though) and it depends on each coin which are smaller and larger, there is no universal rule. Coins that replaced those, in terms of size, early 90s have differences in hair of the emperor only.

I found two more important and significant varieties not mentioned on Turkish sites, nor in Krause. Didn't want to spam there, but it's quite an update I believe. Back to Ottoman era.

20 kurush of sultan Abdulmecid KM#675 and KM#676 are separated not by subtype, but with whole new number. Year 15 belongs to the older type, with smaller rev and only slightly different obverse, where obv variety would not be enough to distinguish them by subtypes.

10 kurush is like always scarce, and not minted after yr 13. So I thought, let's see 5 kurush. Bingo! Exactly the same difference. From year 16 reverse was considerably larger, leave space for those.

In my collection I saved two examples of KM#736, one older with big, robust design, one smaller. Indeed, from ottomancoins.com, I realized they changed with regnal year 26. It's quite a big difference, comparing toughras, where reverse is bolder only but almost the same size. They deserve subtype for sure. Lazy to link pics, you can find it there.

Of course, I checked the other types, 1 kurus specifically, there is no change at that date, but later change in toughra rotation for the last few years, not enough for subnumber I believe.

So we should have KM#736.1 and 736.2, along with 673.1 and 673.2.

Globetrotter

The 100 kurus 1934 documentation

eurocoin

Why is there twice the same images on the documentation?

Globetrotter

Where? Please specify, there are small and medium stars (nearly the same size), but the rims are different!

africancoins

Ole,
  your document uses the same coin image and close-up image for both the first pair of coin and close-up and the third pair of coin and close-up.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Globetrotter

Look at the rims and the denticles and you'll see they differ.

africancoins

But I can see that they are the same coin because the surface flaws (due to wear) all match between what I see in the images for first and third instance of coin and close-up in the document.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker