Author Topic: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?  (Read 8278 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Abhay

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2 738
British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« on: December 20, 2009, 07:18:02 AM »
Here is a Geaorge V Rupee of British India, Year 1912. This coin looks like any other normal George V coin. But the similarity ends with the looks. If you weigh this coin, it is actually 14.26 grams. All the other Rupee coins of British India weighs 11.66 grams. So, in all probability, this coin must have been "MADE" by a Jeweller, who used it as a weight to purchase old jewellery. In older times, it was very common to use coins as weights. (11.66 Grams is equal to 1 TOLA). Even today, most of the Indian Woman buy and sell jewellery by using TOLA weight standard. So, this coin was used as a weight to "Purchase" the old jewellery. In this process, the jeweller actually used to get 14.26 grams of gold for the price of 11.66 grams, a cool profit of over 20%. >:D. However, this coin is in fairly wornout condition, which suggests that this coin could have been in circulation as well.  ???
INVESTING IN YESTERDAY

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31 573
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 10:16:39 PM »
Is it silver? I have in my collection a very good contemporary imitation of a rupee 1885 in a white metal, maybe zinc or tin.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Abhay

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2 738
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 04:34:11 AM »
Is it silver? I have in my collection a very good contemporary imitation of a rupee 1885 in a white metal, maybe zinc or tin.

Peter

Yes, this is silver, but the thickness seems to be little more than normal.

Abhay
INVESTING IN YESTERDAY

mumbapuri

  • Guest
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2009, 07:21:02 AM »
if its silver and the way it looks and its 3gm more that wats its supposed to be... then i would think its a keeper...:). wonder if this was done is some ways with the help of the mint in those days? possible?
and u r spot on with the coin usage as a wt...

Offline MS

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 347
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2009, 01:28:44 PM »
I have a growing interest in this area of Indian coins but my understanding is limited to the literature I read on BI coins. OK That was the disclaimer.

Most counterfeits I have seen on the internet are easy to determine by the design. Somehow the bust always looks a bit different compared to the original. Some other notice-able difference I see are the font and the placement of the text, the details of the floral designs. This particular coin is more difficult to distinguish from the original because it has worn out so much but it looks like a very good imitation. I would be interested to know if this coin has a reeded edge.

The suggestion of a dishonest jeweler is very interesting and in all probability very likely. Sneaky!!

MS


Offline Abhay

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2 738
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2009, 04:47:21 PM »
I have a growing interest in this area of Indian coins but my understanding is limited to the literature I read on BI coins. OK That was the disclaimer.

Most counterfeits I have seen on the internet are easy to determine by the design. Somehow the bust always looks a bit different compared to the original. Some other notice-able difference I see are the font and the placement of the text, the details of the floral designs. This particular coin is more difficult to distinguish from the original because it has worn out so much but it looks like a very good imitation. I would be interested to know if this coin has a reeded edge.

The suggestion of a dishonest jeweler is very interesting and in all probability very likely. Sneaky!!

MS



Dear MS,
Yes, this coin has reeded edge. Except for the weight, it is very difficult to make out that this coin is a fake.

Abhay
INVESTING IN YESTERDAY

Offline Md. Shariful Islam

  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2 554
  • Tonk>Tanka>Taka
    • Coins of Medieval Bengal
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2011, 04:44:23 PM »
I admit that there is possibility that the coin is fake, but if only weight is the problem then should we conclude only based on the weight of the coin? Isn't there any chance that it is an error? The planchet may have been thicker by mistake of the mint. Is the probability of this is zero?

Islam

Offline Oesho

  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3 398
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2011, 05:10:12 PM »
Is the coin really thicker? It is also possible for a jeweller to drill one or a few holes in the edge of the coin and cast lead into it. Plug the hole on the edge nicely, repair the milling and you will have the same coin, but of heavier weight. Nobody will detect it, unless the weight is verified and the edge carefully screened. There are so many ways to cheat innocent people.

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31 573
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2011, 05:37:25 PM »
No error is ever excluded and every possible error has been made. However, the likelihood of this being an error is small.

Coin planchets are produced by rolling a bar of metal into a plate of the required thickness. The flans are cut out of the plate with a round "knife". Since silver is a valuable metal, the plates are checked very carefully. The chances that the plate is too thin are much bigger than that it is too thick. Also, mints would make statistics of blanks and scrap metal, so that the bean counters would quickly notice something was wrong.

The bars are usually made by pouring molten metal in a mould, producing bars of quite similar weight. If the bar had been insufficiently rolled, it would not have produced the standard number of blanks and some of the blanks would have been clipped (the knife would have cut an incomplete circle, due to lack of metal.) The bad planchets would have alerted the machine operator that something was wrong. As the coin is 20% heavier, the knives may even have had trouble cutting through the plate, which would have been another sign of trouble for the machine operator.

Of course, bags of coins are also weighed before they leave the mint. If there was a faulty plate, it would have produced many coins that were too heavy, making it very unlikely that the error wasn't noticed.

In general, errors made late in the production process (such as bad die alignment) are much more likely than those made early in the process. However, when supervision is lax, anything can happen.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 12:10:59 AM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

akona20

  • Guest
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2011, 11:47:27 PM »
This is interesting in more ways than one. I have noticed throughout areas of south east asia how 'official' looking weights have been tampered with to gain an advantage on either side of the ledger.

Oesho's theory needs carefull looking into but I wonder if there wasn't a little industry being run to make these things at a premium price to be used as a weight to purely deceive.

Offline Coinsforever

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3 274
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2011, 01:12:57 AM »

Oesho's theory needs carefull looking into but I wonder if there wasn't a little industry being run to make these things at a premium price to be used as a weight to purely deceive.

I fully agree with views of all the Gentlemen , Both  Numismatics & Philately are not at all free from such malpractices some errors are certainly made to order.............

Cheers ;D
Every experience, good or bad, is a priceless collector's item.



http://knowledge-numismatics.blogspot.in/

Offline Abhay

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2 738
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2012, 01:40:04 AM »
Dr. Shastri,

Can you please throw some light on this coin? If you need high resolution images of this coin, I can upload them.

This is surely a fake/forged coin, with 20% overweight.

Abhay
INVESTING IN YESTERDAY

Offline Shastri JC Philip

  • Shastri JC Philip
  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
    • Indian Coins
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 05:58:42 PM »
Dear Abhay,

please give me a day. The moment I saw the post (even before I read your note addressed to me) I did decide to go in more detail -- and lo your request comes in.

I would love to have a 600dpi or higher picture. 1200 would be excellent. Send me a colour scan and also a greyscale scan. You can mail it to  Shastri.JCPhilip at Gmail dot Com
Shastri JC Philip
http://www.IndianCoins.org

Let Us Join Hands To Popularize Indian Coins!!!

Offline Abhay

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2 738
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2012, 09:56:41 AM »
On a closer look through the Microscope, now it can be seen that most probably, the coin was sliced into two halves, and then again joined together. It is quite possible, that the inner metal from the coin was scraped, and then again filled with lead or other heavy metal.

I am enclosing the close up images of the reeded side, which shows the slicing marks. For comparison, I am also enclosing the reeded side from a normal coin.

Abhay
INVESTING IN YESTERDAY

Offline Abhay

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2 738
Re: British India George V Rupee - A Jeweller's Cheating Weight?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2012, 10:11:51 AM »
Just checked the thickness also, using a screw micrometer.

The thickness of the heavy coin at centre is 1.17 mm, and that at the rim is 1.24 mm, even though it is quite worn out.

The thickness of a fine grade coin of 1912, with normal weight, is 0.62 mm at the centre, and 1.03 mm at the rim.

The coin on the right is Heavy Weight, and that on the left is normal weight.

Abhay
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 10:18:51 AM by engipress »
INVESTING IN YESTERDAY