Barbaric Byzantines?

[Rangnath]

I posted a small coin, less than 10 mm, some time ago that someone thought might be a barbaric copy of a Byzantine coin. Including that one, i have more that seem to belong to each other.  Perhaps that will make it easier for someone to catalog or identify.
 Forgive me if this isn't the correct forum; these are not likely to be technically "ancient". 
richie

[Figleaf]

I'd say the two coins are of the same type. On the latest coin I can see a head facing right. The reverses are alike and I phant'sy that the obverses are alike as well. However, on Byzantine coins, portraits are usually facing.

I have found an interesting class of coins that look like yours: imitations of Roman tremisses from the 5th to the 7th century. They are called trymsa in Britain. From R. A. G. Carson Coins of Europe, section on Visigoths, Burgundians and Merovingians: "The more usual regal coinage of the Merovingians consists of tremissis with a conventional profile portrait and regal name on obverse and on reverse a Victory type or a cross type with mint letters and the name of the moneyer" and "The majority of the tremissis coinage from the second half of the sixth century onwards is that of the moneyers. Around the conventional head on the obverse appears the name of the moneyer, often accompanied by MONETARIUS in variously abbreviated forms; on the other side is a cross motif with the name of the mint."

These intriguing coins are indeed 13 mm, as are yours. However, they are gold.

Peter

[Rangnath]

I found the following web site:  http://cgb.fr/monnaies/vso/v11/gb/sommairegb6f90.html with quite a few images of Merovingian coins. Many were of base metals.  While intriguing, there was nothing there that suggested a definite hit.
 
Peter, I'm not going to research this further.  Yes I find the history fascinating, but I'd like to direct my research to other areas. 

If you or anyone you know is interested in acquiring these, let me know.  I'll offer the dealer who now owns them a dollar a piece for them. I don't know if he is willing to accept that, but I can certainly try. I'd be willing to trade them for world coins with the value of one dollar a piece.  That seems fair. No profit is needed.

The coins deserve someone's attention.  I'd like to be the match maker.

Now, back to Mogul hammered coins.
richie

[Figleaf]

Let's wait and see if Ghipszky is interested when she's out of hospital. If not, I'm game. In other words, you run no risk trying to get the dealer to sell them.

Peter

[Rangnath]

That sounds like a plan.
Richie

[Rangnath]

I came across this identified as BYZANTINE, Heraclius, 610-41 AD, bronze 12 nummi SB-853, 2 busts facing / cross potent between I B, ALEX, aVF $35.00
Richie

[Figleaf]

That reverse is a match, I'd say. Same for the obverse and the right coin, maybe. On the left coin I see one face looking right, but maybe that's me...

Peter

[Rangnath]

Well Peter, what do you think?  Were the coins on top coppers crudely made in Byzantium? Or, were the coins on top crude "barbaric" coppies of crude coppers? 
I'm still inclined be the match maker for someone who wants to investigate this mystery further. 
Richie

[Figleaf]

Just an opinion. No science. I think the Byzantine coin or others like it served as inspiration for both reverses and maybe the obverse of the coin on the right. I wouldn't mind if it does turn out to be Merovingian I have the feeling we will get closer yet.

Peter

[Rangnath]

Could it be that you'd like it to be Merovingian because it is closer to home?
As an American, I don't ever have that as an option.  Though I did once find a 1773 King George III copper penny while digging a parsnip bed in my garden in Southern Maryland.

In the case of this coin, I am much more interested in the discovery of the coin's history than I am with the coin itself.
richie

[Figleaf]

Could it be that you'd like it to be Merovingian because it is closer to home?
As an American, I don't ever have that as an option.  Though I did once find a 1773 King George III copper penny while digging a parsnip bed in my garden in Southern Maryland.

I didn't use the word "like" . It's more that this is a period that's not at all represented in my collection. I cannot hope to have an extensive collection of coins of the merovingians, but a few representative pieces would be quite nice. As for finding, you can find in the ground or among a dealer's extras or at an online auction and I don't see much of a difference, except that if you dig it up, you don't pay. That's attractive, but digging really good things up requires quite a bit of lugging and digging and yields much frustration also.

In the case of this coin, I am much more interested in the discovery of the coin's history than I am with the coin itself.

OK, I wrote a mail to one of my friends, Michel Prieur of CGB. Let's see if he or his staff knows. If there is a French connection, he'll find it.

Peter

[Figleaf]

Ze Fgench rezponz:

Ce que je connais en imitations de pi?ces byzantines ne ressemble pas du tout ? cela, ni pour le style, ni pour la qualit? d'ex?cution. A premi?re vue, je pencherais pour des faux modernes.


The pieces imitating Byzantine coins that I know do not look like this, neither in style, nor in sophistication. At first sight, I am inclining towards modern forgeries.

Peter

[Rangnath]

Very interesting.  I'll see if I can aquire them for you, as inexpensively as possible. 
richie

[bruce61813]

They are possibly fake, but don't count out Arabic copies of Byzantine coins, I am trying to locate some examples.

Bruce

[Rangnath]

Wow. This is complicated, isn't it?
richie