Author Topic: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land  (Read 10142 times)

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Offline Zantetsuken

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Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« on: November 06, 2009, 07:25:04 AM »
This thread deals with coins from SIBERIA. Siberia was home to many nomadic tribes, and in the 13th century came under the occupation of the Mongols. When the Golden Horde disbanded, the Siberian Khanate was established in the 14th century. As Russia gained power, it started to expand it's influence east of the Ural Mountains by sending in traders and Cossacks into region. Eventually Russian troops set up forts and outpost further eastward. Eventually, the Siberian Khanate was toppled. By the 16th century, Russia's control extended  to the Pacific coast. In the Tartar languange, 'Siber' translates roughly into 'The Sleeping Land' thus the name Siberia. During the reign of Ekaterina Romanov II, a mining colony was set up in the Altai Mountains. Due to a shortage of coins, a mint was set up Kolyvan to strike coins for the region. Coins were struck as early as 1763 up till 1781. Coins were issued in denominations of Poloushkas (1/4 Kopek), Dengas (1/2 Kopek), 1,2,5 and 10 Kopeks. All denominations excluding the Poloushka contain the regional arms bearing a crowned shield with the respective denomination written in Cyrillic supported by two sables, and 'СИБИРСКАЯ МОНЕТА/SIBERIAN MONEY' written along the rim. on the obverse. The reverse shows Ekaterina's stylised seal  in the center with crown and wreath and the intials K/M for the Kolyvan mint.


SIBERIA (REGIONAL)~1 Kopek 1771


SIBERIA (REGIONAL)~2 Kopek 1769


SIBERIA (REGIONAL)~5 Kopek 1767


SIBERIA (REGIONAL)~10 Kopek 1777
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 04:28:12 AM by Zantetsuken »

Offline Zantetsuken

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2009, 04:11:25 PM »
The 1777 version is in beautiful condition. Sables still appear on the modern Croatian coins, of course. Your selection of posts is fascinatingly esoteric. At 55 posts, you're already a star of the forum. My own field of interest (and knowledge) is much narrower, so I'm rarely able to comment on your posts, but this is a particularly intriguing and informative one.

Thanks 'Ice Torch' I'm glad you like them. I love the 1777 piece too. Except for the for the flan glitch at the corner, this is practically in mint condition (IMO).  Actually on the Croatian coins, the animal is called a 'Marten'. Like the Sable, the Marten was used for fur trade in their respective areas. I cheked on Wikipedia, and they mention that they are related to one another. The Sable's (in Siberia) name is (Martes zibellina), and the Marten in Croatia has the same genus name, but haven't narrowed down the species. Having a narrower interest makes it easier to focus your knowledge and to hopefully find what your looking for. I use what ever resources available to aquire information about the coins and areas they were issued for.  I have another 10 Kopek specimen that was cleaned by it's previous owner, and thus most of the patina was removed. It's still a decent coin and a rarer date, but the 1777 specimen is better for it's natural toning.



SIBERIA~10 Kopek 1780
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 04:29:05 AM by Zantetsuken »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2009, 08:33:10 PM »
I don't think it's a "flan glitch". Look at it in relation with the weakness on the other side. That coin was pretty perfect until something mechanical slammed into it with enough force to crack the surface. There are two other scars above the main one, but they hardly left a trace on the other side. My romantic side speculates that the coin was used to sabotage a cogwheel some machine (a coin press, maybe?) The erstwhile owner may not have wanted to risk his fingers by pushing it in too deep, but succeeded in stopping the machine. My numismatic side shrugs at this and reminds me that these are jaw-dropping pictures. Thanks, Zantetsuken.

BTW, would you have any of the Russian coins for the Ionian islands? I never saw any of those.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Zantetsuken

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2009, 01:46:46 AM »
I don't think it's a "flan glitch". Look at it in relation with the weakness on the other side. That coin was pretty perfect until something mechanical slammed into it with enough force to crack the surface. There are two other scars above the main one, but they hardly left a trace on the other side. My romantic side speculates that the coin was used to sabotage a cogwheel some machine (a coin press, maybe?) The erstwhile owner may not have wanted to risk his fingers by pushing it in too deep, but succeeded in stopping the machine. My numismatic side shrugs at this and reminds me that these are jaw-dropping pictures. Thanks, Zantetsuken.

BTW, would you have any of the Russian coins for the Ionian islands? I never saw any of those.

Peter

Thanks Peter, I'm glad you liked them. You have a very interesting theory about what might have caused the crevice in the 10 Kopek coin. Stranger things have happened. As for Russian coins for the Ionian Islands? I've never heard of or even seen any. That doesn't always mean anything, since there are sometimes unlisted varieties still to be discovered. There are, however, supposed to be Venetian issues that were dated 1801 listed in Krause. I have two British specimens for the Ionian Islands. A 1 Lepta from 1834, and an Obol 1819. If you have any more info about the Russian issues for this area, please let me know. You have piqued my interest. Thanks.

~Daniel

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2009, 01:55:43 AM »
Sorry, Daniel. You are quite right. They are Venetian. Somehow, the Greek letters became cyrillic in my mind. That'll teach me to check what my memory tells me.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Harald

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2009, 09:05:11 PM »
The "State of the Seven Islands" (Eptanésos) of 1800-1807 was indeed a Russian-Turkish protectorate. The Venetian domination had ceased in 1799.
So the 1801 coins were indeed somehow Russian. But the currency system was still the one of Venice.

These coins are unbelievably rare & expensive. I saw one of them offered in an auction, it went away for some 5000 euros.

cheers
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Harald
http://www.liganda.ch (monetary history & numismatic linguistics)

Offline Zantetsuken

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 07:24:04 AM »
It's been awhile, but here are a couple new specimens I picked up within the last couple of months. The first is 1 Kopek dated 1774, and the second is 10 Kopek dated 1781. 1781 was a key date since it was the last year coins were issued for Siberia. Also, the 10 Kopek was the only denomination struck on that date.



SIBERIA~1 Kopek 1774



SIBERIA~10 Kopek 1781
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 04:31:24 AM by Zantetsuken »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2010, 07:57:11 AM »
What a splendid series you have collected.

I have been wondering about the economics of these coins and found at least some answers. It seems that copper was found in the vicinity of Kolyvan, but as a by-product of a silver mine. This is by itself interesting, as copper is more usually a by-product of gold mines. A silver/copper smelting operation was established in the 1730's. The local copper surplus led to a copper industry, that managed to attract good artisans, so that Siberian copper articles acquired an image of good quality and workmanship among Russian nobility, especially when a polishing plant was added in 1786. Around 1800, all this activity disappeared, presumably because the mine's silver was depleted.

The above explains a copper mint quite satisfactorily. What still bugs me is a) where did the locals get the energy to drive these plants, especially the smelting operation (burning wood? coal?) and b) why didn't the Kolyvan mint strike the standard Russian coins?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Ukrainii Pyat

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2010, 01:00:31 PM »
b) why didn't the Kolyvan mint strike the standard Russian coins?

Peter

The technology to isolate the trace amounts of gold and silver from the copper was not then economically feasible to haul into Kolyvan - the result is that if you did a metallurgical survey of the coinage you would determine that there are indeed trace amounts of gold and silver.  If you minted the coins as the rest of the coinage of the Russian Empire the coins would have had metal value which exceeded the denomination value of the coin.  So the Siberian coins are a bit smaller than their regular Russian counterparts - due to metallurgy.

Only posting these denominations that I own since they haven't yet appeared in this thread:

Polushka

Denezhka

Донецк Украина Donets'k Ukraine

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 03:01:31 PM »
Makes perfect sense. Thank you.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Zantetsuken

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 05:24:10 PM »
Thanks Peter for your comment, and 'scottishmoney' for your information and contribution of images to the thread. I did hear that the ore in Siberia had traces of gold and silver in it. That being said, it was probably difficult to keep the value of the metal with the denomination in balance. I have yet to find both the Denga and Polushka for this area. A number of them are showing up on Ebay, but many are either suspect or confirmed fakes. I have a Denga dated 1769 from my collection that I bought awhile ago, but I'm pretty sure it's bogus. Fortunately, I didn't pay much for it. Live and learn I guess.

~Daniel.

Offline Ukrainii Pyat

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 06:09:54 PM »
Try to look to here:

http://www.rustypennies.com/catalog/catherine_II.html

This is Alex Basok's website.  He sells a lot of Russian, Siberian, Moldova materiel and I find the polushka from him.
Донецк Украина Donets'k Ukraine

Offline Zantetsuken

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2011, 06:06:09 PM »
Here are three more additions for this thread. This is a Polushka 1774, 2 Kopek 1780 and 5 Kopek 1779.



SIBERIA (REGIONAL)~Polushka 1774



SIBERIA (REGIONAL)~2 Kopek 1780



SIBERIA (REGIONAL)~5 Kopek 1779



~Daniel
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 04:33:41 AM by Zantetsuken »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2011, 09:10:27 PM »
Congratulations, Daniel. You'll find the denga too one day.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Zantetsuken

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Re: Siberia: Coins of the Sleeping Land
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2013, 04:39:27 AM »
Finally, I complete my set of Siberian coins with this 1 Denga coin, dated 1768.  Now I have one for each denomination.


SIBERIA (REGIONAL)~1 Denga 1768