Author Topic: France pretender coinage 1800s  (Read 153 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sony

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27
France pretender coinage 1800s
« on: March 26, 2020, 12:16:01 PM »
Hello,

I have question about France pretender coinage from 1800s:

Is any of pretender coinage circulated in France or colony and was accepted with local population?


In Spain some preteneder coins circulate and was accepted .

Thanks for answers.

Online Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30 174
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2020, 12:42:58 PM »
Which coins are you thinking of specifically?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline sony

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2020, 01:04:52 PM »
Coins from Napoleon II from year 1816.

Coins from Henry V from the years  1831,1832, 1833, 1/2 franc 1858.

Coins from Napoleon IV 1874.




Offline Paris

  • liaison officer
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 174
    • French-speaking coin forum
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2020, 01:29:17 PM »
Hello,

I think no. I always saw this coinages uncirculated.

Online Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30 174
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2020, 01:42:03 PM »
I agree with Paris. However, the "100 days" coins of Napoleon I can be found circulated.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Paris

  • liaison officer
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 174
    • French-speaking coin forum
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2020, 10:05:39 PM »
The situation was different, Napoleon during the 100 days was the real holder of the power in France. So called Napoleon II and IV and Henri V have never been.

More strangely, "5 francs" by Camelinat (Commune de Paris) and, a long time ago, coinage for Charles X cardinal de Bourbon (at the end of religious war) circulated. In the case of this Charles X, the majority (or the whole ? I don't remember) of his coinage has been issued after his death!
Charles X cardinal de Bourbon was a pretender.

Offline Paris

  • liaison officer
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 174
    • French-speaking coin forum
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2020, 10:17:38 PM »
For being more complete : during several years after 1871 and the fall of the Commune de Paris,  French authorities continue to retain Camelinat coins that felt into their hands while circulating, which is a good proof that they did circulate.
For Charles X de Bourbon,  I do not know what happened but his coinage is not rare and usualy with strong proof of circulation. I think the majority of it was "douzains", probably they disappeared little by little after June 1640 like all other douzains.

Offline Paris

  • liaison officer
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 174
    • French-speaking coin forum
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2020, 10:37:39 PM »
In fact, coinage in the name of Louis XVIII struck "in advance" in London in 1814 should be regarded as a pretender coinage, as Louis was not king on that time and this is exactly the reason why this coinage has been struck in a city out of French control.
In the 20th century, the "2 francs Philadelphie" struck for France in the US before June 44 is in quite similar situation : a bet about a future victory.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 09:58:20 AM by Paris »

Online Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30 174
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2020, 07:48:19 AM »
All good points. Didn't realise the London coins were struck when Louis XVIII was not king, but it makes sense of course.

What is a "pretender" is in the eye of the beholder. There is a situation in law and in fact. The allies won the second world war, so the Dutch coins struck in the US are judged by the legal situation, not the factual situation: power in the Netherlands was held by the nazis. Likewise, during the 100 days, the allies and French royalists would have felt that Napoleon was a pretender de jure, holding power de facto. His supporters would have maintained that Napoleon was ruler de jure as well as de facto. After Waterloo, the allies and royalists were right and his supporters were wrong, because victors determine how history is recorded. Ask Julius Caesar. :)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Paris

  • liaison officer
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 174
    • French-speaking coin forum
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2020, 10:23:26 AM »
Sorry, i used the verb "cast" instead of "struck", I modified my text (difficult on my mobile!).

For me, numismatics have no relation with political opinions: if a person or a group of persons struck coins for a country but is forced to struck it in another country, it means they do not have the power (the "imperium" in legal analysis) so they are pretenders (on that time at least). No matter I prefer them or the holder of the power during this period.

This is at least what we may say about the coinages we were talking about, issued when the French territory was under the same authority. Perhaps the analysis would be different about a  period of anarchy with different mints under opposite authorities in the same national territory, like in China in the first half of the 20th century.

I do not know enough precisely the situation under Charles X de Bourbon for judging the real power of each party. But about Louis XVIII in London (and coins in the name of Louis XVII before him), Napoléon II and IV,  Henri V and the 2 francs Philadelphie,  it seems to be clear.

Offline FosseWay

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3 209
  • Göteborg, Sverige
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2020, 11:24:09 AM »
But about Louis XVIII in London (and coins in the name of Louis XVII before him), Napoléon II and IV,  Henri V and the 2 francs Philadelphie,  it seems to be clear.

Yes, I would take a similar view. During all civil wars, there is argument about who is the legitimate ruler of the territory - that's the whole point of the war. And generally whoever wins then brands the losers as "pretenders", "illegitimate" etc. But so long as a given authority has control over a territory and issues coins there that are used, I see that as a legitimate issue. So emergency issues by both sides in Spain in 1936-39 come into this category, but so do current coins issued by authorities whose existence is disputed (the Falkland Islands or Transdnistria, for example).

For me a "pretender" is someone who "pretends" s/he is the ruler of somewhere but does nothing concrete about achieving that aim, or does try but fails sufficiently quickly and totally for coin issues to be irrelevant. In the UK context that means the pretenders "James VIII/III" and "Charles III" (the latter a.k.a. Bonnie Prince Charlie) and their descendants, as well as earlier pretenders like Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck during the 1480s/90s. On the other hand, coinage of the English Commonwealth and Cromwell's protectorate (1649-60) are not "pretender" coinages, because they were issued by the de facto authority in charge and used in practice, even though the establishment after 1660 did its best to mark the previous regime as illegitimate.

Offline Paris

  • liaison officer
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 174
    • French-speaking coin forum
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2020, 11:36:04 AM »
I forgot Spain 1936-39, but it is a situation very similar (numismatically saying) with China 1912-1948, and even Secession War (which has been more simple : 2 groups of allieds instead of 20, 30...) : all the different coinages during these periods were local, but not foreign.

Offline sony

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: France pretender coinage 1800s
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2020, 12:18:49 PM »
10 Centimos - Carlos VII (pretender) - Spain – Numista

I have this coin. Nice pretender coin which was actually circualted in Basque and Navarre country.