Author Topic: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?  (Read 381 times)

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Offline CameronK

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ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« on: December 04, 2019, 03:49:02 AM »
I got this in a group, labelled 'not researched'! Can someone help me with the inscription? I'm not great at reading these. I believe I see 'RIDVS REX' on the obverse, and 'IOH OHS D' on the reverse. It's 18mm and 1.2 grams. Thanks for all the help!
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Offline FosseWay

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2019, 06:38:50 PM »
I possibly see HENRICUS REX on the right hand image. If English, that would mean the text on the other side should be the moneyer and mint, which could be IOH ON SE...

If I'm reading that right, IOH would be John/Johannes. I can't immediately think of a mint beginning SE. I will have a dig and see what else I can come up with.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2019, 07:04:51 PM »
Hmm. If it is English, it must be Henry III, and after 1247 in that reign. Previous Henries did not use the Long Cross reverse, and you have to wait until 1399 for the next Henry, and coin design in general had moved on by then. The double-lined cross is a characteristic of Henry III, while the Edwards and later tended to use a cross with a single but thicker line.

I say "if it's English" because nowhere can I see ANGLIE or similar. However, there is a group of Henry III pennies (Spink 1361-1364) where the country name is omitted and where the portrait has curly hair but no hand or sceptre. 1358-1360 have a similar portrait but include some form of abbreviation of ANGLIE. 1365 onwards all seem to have a sceptre to the left (as you look at it) of the portrait.

In my copy of Spink, 1361, 1363 and 1364 are illustrated with the obverse only, and 1362 not at all. The description of the reverse is just "moneyer and mint". The portrait on 1361 is too triangular and thin to match yours; if yours is from this series, it looks more like 1363 or 1364. (1362 also has the thin face.)

According to the map at the start of Henry II's reign, the possible mints for the voided Long Cross coinage (1247-79) are (from north to south): Carlisle, Newcastle, Durham, York, Lincoln, Shrewsbury, Northampton, Norwich, Bury St Edmunds, Hereford, Gloucester, Oxford, Wallingford, Bristol, London, Canterbury, Winchester, Wilton, Ilchester and Exeter. There were IOH or ION moneyers at the bold ones.

I can't make much of the obverse of your coin despite its reasonable quality, and I don't know what the Latin or older English form was for some of the more minor mints listed. But some more research on the pennies of Henry III immediately after 1247 may be worthwhile, with a book that goes into more detail than Spink, if only to rule them out.

Offline andyg

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2019, 07:05:30 PM »
I possibly see HENRICUS REX on the right hand image. If English, that would mean the text on the other side should be the moneyer and mint, which could be IOH ON SE...

If I'm reading that right, IOH would be John/Johannes. I can't immediately think of a mint beginning SE. I will have a dig and see what else I can come up with.

Bury St Edmunds...  S.EDM
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline FosseWay

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2019, 07:11:21 PM »
This is where we need a more comprehensive book...

Spink 1359 (which this definitely isn't but which is roughly contemporaneous with the others I mentioned) comes from three known mints: London (LON), Canterbury (CAN) and Bury St Edmunds (AED). S EDM sounds eminently plausible for Bury St Edmunds, but if they habitually called it something else around the same time then perhaps we're seeing things that aren't there.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2019, 07:18:33 PM »
We can narrow down the field of possibilities a bit further, I find. Spink lists mint, moneyer and type, where the type I suggested in my first reply is categorised as III, and more specifically IIIb and IIIc for the ones with the fat face and curly beard.

The mints where the IOH-moneyers produced type IIIb/c coins are Canterbury, Carlisle, Exeter, Gloucester, Lincoln, Newcastle, Norwich, Wilton, York. But not, it seems, either BSE or London, which otherwise are quite common if the relative price of the various mints is anything to go by.

Offline andyg

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2019, 07:23:02 PM »
Canterbury - CANT,
Carlisle - CARLEL,
Exeter - ECCETRE,
Gloucester - GLOECES,
Lincoln - NICOLE,
Newcastle - NEVECA,
Norwich - NORWIC,
Wilton - WILT,
York - EVERWIC.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline FosseWay

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2019, 07:30:06 PM »
Thanks for those. Unfortunately I can see no matches with the OP's coin. Using Occam's Razor would suggest that I'm barking up the wrong tree, or possibly in the wrong forest entirely.

Offline andyg

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2019, 07:37:02 PM »
it's in the right ballpark I think,
legend is maybe HENRICUS REX III
with mint and moneyer on the other side.....
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline Manzikert

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2019, 10:02:15 PM »
Henry III, class 3a, Bury St Ednunds, see Bury Class 3a, 3ab

Alan

Offline FosseWay

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2019, 07:07:34 AM »
Excellent, so S EDM was right after all. Also the coins illustrated on Alan's link show a much wider variety in face shape on the king's portrait than the one illustrated for type IIIa in Spink, which has a very narrow, triangular face.

Alan, do you know why in the slightly earlier issue Bury St Edmunds was given the mintmark AED? This is what was confusing me.

Offline Manzikert

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2019, 09:54:06 AM »
I'm afraid I don't have more than a general knowledge of English coinages: the link was just the result of a lucky google search!

The Anglo-Saxon spelling of Edmund would presumably be 'Aedmund', so AED would be a perfectly good abbreviation, but that is just a guess.

Alan

Offline Figleaf

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2019, 10:56:52 AM »
Splendid teamwork, gentlemen! Sorry I was unable to participate.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline CameronK

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Re: ID Help - small silver coin - English Penny?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2019, 03:10:14 PM »
Wow! Thanks so much for the replies and resources. Very very helpful.
Why? I coax stories out of unidentified coins.