Author Topic: Brazil 10 reis 1819  (Read 130 times)

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Offline mrbadexample

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Brazil 10 reis 1819
« on: June 09, 2019, 06:43:24 PM »
Hi all,

I have recently acquired this Brazilian 10 reis, 1819. Two things strike me when I look at it.

Firstly, it appears to have been struck over another coin. Letters can be seen under the reverse legend.

Secondly, the R mintmark is struck over a B.

Can anyone identify or suggest what the undertype might be? Is the R/B mintmark recorded anywhere? It's not listed in Krause but of course may well have been noted elsewhere.

Any insight would be appreciated.
Cheers,
MBE  :)

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Brazil 10 reis 1819
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2019, 06:52:21 PM »
Close ups:


Offline Figleaf

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Re: Brazil 10 reis 1819
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2019, 10:17:05 PM »
Below TOTUM I can read BRAS in mirror image, which proves that this is not an overstrike but a die clash: the dies in the press clashed without a flan in between, damaging each other with parts of a mirror imprint of the opposite die. The date area looks correct to me.

The B is mysterious. Not only is a 10 reis 1819 B (Bahia) not recorded, the two design elements on both sides of the X have well rounded leaves on the R (Rio de Janeiro) dies, but are significantly smaller on the Bahia dies, tending towards a plus. Therefore, the coin was struck with an R die. B coins are known with the date 1821 and there is a 20 reis 1820 B. There are no Bahia coins listed from 1817 to 1819.

I could imagine a scenario where Rio dies were used to see if the machines in Bahia were still serviceable when plans arose to re-open the Bahia mint. In order to save money, those test dies could even be damaged and considered unfit for regular use. This may be the reason for re-punching the R with a B: the coins struck with damaged dies would have been easier to recognise on sight. A test run would also explain that the coin is in a great state of preservation. However, this is all speculation.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Brazil 10 reis 1819
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2019, 11:36:31 PM »
Thanks Peter - I'm fairly sure you're right about the die clash as I can follow the legend either way using the B as a starting point. So we'll call that bit solved. :)

My SCWC does list a 10 reis 1818B (is this an error?) - my initial thought was that the B dies had been reused and repunched with an R, which of course would presuppose the dies were taken from Bahia to Rio. Not beyond the realms of possibility if the Bahia mint closed for a period of time. However, if the florets either side of the denomination do not match those from Bahia dies, then this scenario does not work. I don't have a Bahia issue to compare, and can only find images of poor examples, unfortunately.

I did also consider the possibility that it's not a true R/B, but a small die break that has caused the bottom of the R to join together. I don't think this is the case though.

You are also right about the state of preservation - in hand the reverse appears to retain some of the original mint lustre and there is only the slightest trace of wear. It must have been down the back of a Brazilian sofa for a very long time.  :D

Offline andyg

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Re: Brazil 10 reis 1819
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2019, 11:49:34 PM »
I did also consider the possibility that it's not a true R/B, but a small die break that has caused the bottom of the R to join together. I don't think this is the case though.

It's possible - I would imagine the 'R' was punched into the die though along with the date?
Below is a picture of mine - nothing strange with the R - but the tail of the R does stick further out....
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Brazil 10 reis 1819
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2019, 11:30:56 AM »
It is apparent that the dies that struck mine were well used - there are a lot of recut letters so I do think it is R/B.

I'd like to see a really nice example of a Bahia mint to compare.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Brazil 10 reis 1819
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2019, 12:30:53 PM »
Here is the best I can do. The listings in Gomes.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Brazil 10 reis 1819
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 04:07:30 PM »
Thanks Peter, that's really helpful. As you say, the quatrefoils on the Bahia mint issues are quite different, suggesting that this is not a recut Bahia die.

I think I'll give Thulium a shout for another opinion...  ;)

Offline Thulium

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Re: Brazil 10 reis 1819
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 08:39:29 PM »
Hi!   :)  I'm not very familiar with older coins of Brasil, but I also see elements of both the B and R in the mintmark. I see the overstrike, as well as details for an R/B--unsure which was the final impression though.

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Brazil 10 reis 1819
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2019, 09:01:34 PM »
Thanks for taking a look. :)

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Brazil 10 reis 1819
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2019, 12:40:46 AM »
A friend in Brazil has found the answer for me. It is a known variety and apparently just a feature of the die. It is listed in the following catalogue as 501D:

Thanks Fred. ;)