Author Topic: Japan, AE Cash, Kobu-sen, cast at Chikuzen  (Read 114 times)

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Offline capnbirdseye

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Japan, AE Cash, Kobu-sen, cast at Chikuzen
« on: February 12, 2019, 12:17:44 PM »
Another one to identify,  quite light in weight 1.93g    23mm

A small hole in the casting
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 10:27:00 AM by capnbirdseye »
Vic

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Chinese cash to identify
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2019, 04:22:25 PM »
Provisional id, until a real expert has looked at this coin: emperor Hong Wu. I am in doubt because of 1) the see-through character of the coin, suggesting that it is light weigh and b) I would have expected writing on the reverse.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Chinese cash to identify
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2019, 09:33:00 PM »
Another from the Ming dynasty then, I note the two  characters left & right are the same as the coin I posted a couple of days ago but top & bottom are different.

It's the first time I've seen one with a small hole which I presume is from it's original casting and shows poor quality?
Vic

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Chinese cash to identify
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2019, 10:33:03 PM »
Except for the oldest Chinese coin, the left and right characters are always the same. They are tung pao (Wade-Giles). This is translated differently by different sources. My favourite translation is "valid money". These characters play no role in identifying the emperor or dynasty. The top and bottom characters are the name of the era. One emperor's reign may cover more than one era, but an era identifies the emperor. Any denomination or mintmark is on the reverse.

From there on, things are more complex. Casting coins allows for very precise copies. However, the Chinese have always been control freaks, so to indicate a different period, they made subtle changes in the characters, much like "secret marks" on late medieval and early renaissance European coins. It takes a modern catalogue and a degree of expertise to determine the exact subtype, but that can lead to finding the exact year the coin was cast. In a similar way, subtle changes in the characters, the metal or the quality of the cast can tell an expert the coin is an imitation, either from an area where cash type coins were also used (e.g. Japan, Korea, Vietnam) or from an area where there were lots of Chinese (e.g. Indonesia, Malaysia) - using modern country names here - who had a use for cash coins but no source for them.

On top of the above, there are special coins, such as seed coins - used to make moulds or local seed coins, much like European patterns, commemoratives, posthumous coins, temple tokens and palace coins (Chinese new year gifts for the powerful from the even more powerful), loosely comparable to European silver counters. Additionally, there is an abundance of fakes, even of cheap types, that makes it very difficult to collect Chinese cash coins. >:(

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Chinese cash to identify
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2019, 04:20:54 AM »
Reign title is Hong Wu, 1368-98.    The capital at that time was Nanjing.    The pattern of this is of Beijing's mint without reverse character, or another northern mint which never used one, like Xi'an.   We have limited ability to attribute any that have no mint name.

This however is not a Ming coin.   It looks to me like a Japanese type of bita-sen called Chikuzen Kobu, although too broad by a half millimeter.   Next guess is a Japanese iutsushi-sen, or a Vietnamese piece made in the same way.    To me looks Japanese but that is not my area, so much.    If I can get the image over to Zeno, the resident experts can help.   
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 05:17:55 AM by bgriff99 »

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Chinese cash to identify
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2019, 05:16:41 AM »
Posted at Zeno, 219042.   Verdict:
Kobu-sen, cast at Chikuzen 筑前 (today part of : Fukuoka-ken 福岡県) > Kyūshū 九州
Time of issue : Tenbun 天文1 20 (1532 - 1551)

Nicest one at Zeno, too.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 06:16:52 AM by bgriff99 »

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Chinese cash to identify
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2019, 10:14:19 AM »
Posted at Zeno, 219042.   Verdict:
Kobu-sen, cast at Chikuzen 筑前 (today part of : Fukuoka-ken 福岡県) > Kyūshū 九州
Time of issue : Tenbun 天文1 20 (1532 - 1551)

Nicest one at Zeno, too.

Many thanks bgriff99, some of these cash types have an amazing history, these usually come my way as part of mixed lots as my coin interests are elsewhere

I'm unsure of the description given on zeno 'Kobu-sen, cast at Chikuzen' but coin is titled 'Kobu Tsuho' which is it's denomination?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 11:21:44 AM by capnbirdseye »
Vic

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Japan, AE Cash, Kobu-sen, cast at Chikuzen
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2019, 07:20:00 PM »
"Kobu Tsuho" is Japanese for Hong Wu Tong Bao.    "Sen" is Japanese for 'qian' (chien), the word for a cash coin, and also the weight they formerly had of 3.73 grams.    For their modern struck coinage Japan used "sen" for a cent, where in China a cent in their struck coins was ten cash. 


Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Japan, AE Cash, Kobu-sen, cast at Chikuzen
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 10:28:03 AM »
"Kobu Tsuho" is Japanese for Hong Wu Tong Bao.    "Sen" is Japanese for 'qian' (chien), the word for a cash coin, and also the weight they formerly had of 3.73 grams.    For their modern struck coinage Japan used "sen" for a cent, where in China a cent in their struck coins was ten cash.

That explains it, many thanks
Vic

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Japan, AE Cash, Kobu-sen, cast at Chikuzen
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2019, 08:45:04 PM »
Meanwhile, as you probably saw, Heinz sent it for more expert analysis, and changed the site in Japan for its production.