Author Topic: Countermarked Timurid AH801  (Read 222 times)

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Offline maudry

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Countermarked Timurid AH801
« on: January 12, 2019, 11:02:31 AM »
Year of host coin is clearly readable.
Size: 26mm
Weight: 4.99gr

Offline aws22

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2019, 12:36:27 PM »
Dear maudry, mint of host coin is also clearly readable " Sabzawar سبزوار ", below that is the date " 851 ۸۵۱ ".
Host coin reads:
First photo, central kufic legend: لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله, La Ilah illa Allah, Muhammad rasul Allah, meaning, there is no deity except God, Muhammad is the messenger of God.
Marginal Naskh legend, counterclockwise from top:
         Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, ‘Uthman, 'Ali
Second photo, central Naskh legend: ۸۵۱ سنه ضرب سبزوار , Sanat, zarb, Sabzawar 851, meaning, Year, struck at Sabzawar 851.       
Marginal Naskh legend, counterclockwise from upper right:
السلطان الأعظم محمود خان الأمير الأعظم تيمور گورکان
Al-Sultan al-a’zam Mahmud Khan, al-amir al-a’zam Timur Gurkan, meaning, the supreme sultan, Mahmud Khan, the supreme Amir, Timur Gurkan (Gurkan is the Persian form of the Mongolian word kurugan, which means "son-in-law").

Maythem

« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 04:52:40 PM by aws22 »
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline maudry

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2019, 03:24:54 PM »
Thank you Maythem,
I managed to find this coin in zeno: https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=40450
Looks pretty similar to this hist coin.
Any idea about the countermark?

Offline aws22

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2019, 04:46:02 PM »
Thank you maudry, I can only read " Shah al-  شاه ال " at the top of the countermark.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline maudry

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2019, 04:55:23 PM »
Thank you for giving the complete legend of the second photo.
So it is a coin from Timur and the year should be 801. On zeno the coin is attributed to Shahrukh with an error date corrected from 801 to 810.
On these Timurid coins I noticed that the zero is represented as a small circle and not a dot.

Offline aws22

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2019, 07:56:45 PM »
Thank you maudry for pointing out the zero issue, I was unaware of this. So the date on the coin is " 801 ۸۰۱ ", the zero being a small round circle (not a dot).

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline THCoins

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2019, 12:23:17 PM »
Wanted to put a link to this coin in the Timurid coins index, but i don't quite get it ?
In AH801 Mahmud Khan already had died, so this should be a posthumous type. The posthumous Mahmud Khan types from this mint on Zeno look different, all have the Kalima arranged in spiral Kufic.
Then i also cannot fit the visible margin text with your transcription Maythem. That may be my lack of understanding of Arab script. When also looking at the character in front of what you probably read as Mahmud, could the text not also be interpreted as "Sharukh Mirza" ?
Then lastly there is the issue of the possible date error, and also the weight is a bit light to the reference of 6.2 gr. I am confused  ???

Offline maudry

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2019, 02:06:29 PM »
Concerning the low weight, don't forget the coin has been countermarked.
I have the feeling the coin has filed off to respond to the new desired weight.  ???
On the second picture around 11 o'clock there are such big traces.

Offline aws22

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2019, 03:46:32 PM »
Thank you Anthony for your remark regarding fitting the visible margin text with my transcription; please note that the transcription I used for the host coin is from the following reference that shows a similar coin with the same mint and date:
 http://www.classicaleconomies.com/test/timurids.shtml
Both coins looked the same with more words visible in the referenced coin.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline THCoins

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2019, 04:34:01 PM »
Sorry, you do not make it easier Maythem  :-\. The coin in your reference unfortunately does not show very much text either. Album 2386 is a whole category of coins of Timur with Mahmud from different mints. Could not find another fitting specimen.
To make it more confusing, the coin in your link is the exact same specimen as that in the Zeno link given by Maudry. And the attribution there was given as Shahrukh by Rasmir, who is the world Timurid specialist.

Offline aws22

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2019, 05:24:02 PM »
Thank you Anthony, please note that I am not a specialist on Timurid coins but tried to help in reading the Arabic text as I see it which in this coin most of it is not visible. We need to find a similar coin with visible margin text.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline THCoins

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2019, 06:26:58 PM »
Well you may not consider yourself a specialist. But among the members here, we value you as one !
Agree, i would like to see another specimen with clear margin text to resolve the matter.

Anthony

Offline aws22

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2019, 08:08:11 PM »
Thank you Anthony, I appreciate your valuation.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline maudry

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2019, 10:59:25 PM »
If found another coin with apparently the same reverse as the host coin.
Obverse however is different.
This one shows the part of the legend that is missing on the other two coins.
Maybe that will help to resolve the mistery?
Size: 26mm
Weight: 5.64gr

Offline aws22

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Re: Countermarked Timurid AH801
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2019, 04:30:26 PM »
Dear maudry, the new coin did not add more information other than:
Marginal Naskh legend, counterclockwise from upper right (3 O'clock):
    .السلطان الأعظم ................................خلد الله ملكه
Al-Sultan al-a’zam  ........................ Khallad Allah Mulkahu.
The dotted line indicates unclear text.
I think Anthony is right about his doubts of the previous text.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".