Author Topic: Great Mongols; Möngke khan, AE Jou, 655AH ?  (Read 283 times)

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Offline THCoins

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Great Mongols; Möngke khan, AE Jou, 655AH ?
« on: August 27, 2018, 08:05:20 PM »
Möngke was the oldest son of Tolui and grandson of Chengis Khan. He became great Khan in July 1251 AD. His reign ended in 1260.
Under the rule of Mongke a multitude of coins were struck from various cities. There are not many specimen here on WoC.

Below is a small copper coin from Ghazna, Album 1978.E1
The obverse reads: “qa'an / Mungka / al-a'dil” in Arab.
The text in the center circle of the reverse is generally read as "Jou". It is assumed that this was the denomination used at the time.
The margin text around the circle is supposed to show the mintname and date. Starting at the flancrack anti-clockwise i read "Fi  beled Ghazna". This is followed by the date, which on this coin is largely on flan by a stroke of luck.
The first word after Ghazna starting at 4 o'clock must be either "Sanat" for year or "Sit mi'a" for sixhundred. The following two words are written a bid oddly. One would expect the numbers separated by "و" "Wa" , which is absent as an isolated character here. Other specimen of this type, like this one on zeno do show the "wa" separators.
My best guess is that the text is intended as "Khams Khamseen" short for 55. This would make it most likely that this specimen dates from AH655, fitting nicely within the reign of Mongke. But please correct me if i am mistaken.

Of this type there seem to be two versions. In my version the circular margin text is written base-inward. There is also a version, like here on CNG, where the text is written base outwards. It is not clear whether this is linked to possibly different production years.

AE 15 mm, 3.2 gr
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 07:13:31 PM by THCoins »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Great Mongols; Möngke khan, AE Jou, 655AH ?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2018, 08:58:08 AM »
I see Möngke as a traditional, but enlightened Mongol khan. Traditional in the sense that he saw nothing wrong with murdering the population of whole cities, didn't care about religion but valued strict discipline. Enlightened in the sense that he did not choose a nomadic life and appreciated arts and beauty.

This is nicely reflected in your coin. The legends as you deciphered them :applause: are strictly utilitarian. Arabic writing is used because that's what they use in Ghazna and there is no religious reference on the coin. And yet, there is a date. Genghis wouldn't have cared for a date. Even more telling is the denomination, if that's what it is. It means discipline, of course. I, Mönke Khan, say this is a jou. Live with that. However, it is also a level of attention for money and economic organisation that Genghis would not have had. Karakorum versus a tent. Kublai versus the Chatagaids.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline THCoins

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Re: Great Mongols; Möngke khan, AE Jou, 655AH ?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2018, 06:23:58 PM »
I think it is still very much unclear how the Mongols managed monetary affairs in the territory they controlled. Not so long ago it was thought that Mongol destruction left only ruined cities and devastated normal economic life for a long period. It seems to be become slowly clear that economic life resumed quite quickly to normal in many cities which were able to manage their own affairs to a large extent. As long as they acknowledged Mongol authority and the obligations coming with this.
So i wonder if the plain utilitarian nature of many of the coins in this period had anything directly to do with Möngke Khan. It seems just as well possible that he just facilitated recovery by loosening the reigns a bit after the first decades of the transition period into Mongol rule. The new beginning of a coin based financial system might explain why there is such a multitude of different, but individually rare, low denomination coins in this era.

To illustrate with another coin from the period; This is an AE "Panji" from Kurraman.
(14 mm, 3.11 gr, Tye#359, Album-1978P)

Offline THCoins

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Re: Great Mongols; Möngke khan, AE Jou, 655AH ?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2018, 04:20:03 PM »
Have been trying to study coinage under Mongol rule a bit the last weeks.
The “Jou” as a denomination is a bit puzzling. It is not clear to me where the word “جو “ originates from in Arab or Persian. This in contrast to “Adl” “عدل”= “Just”  which is present in a similar fashion on many contemporary coins.
As the word is written without diacritic marks, alternative readings might be possible. It is tempting to read the word not as “جو “, but as “Haq” “حق”. This because “Haq” in Arab-Persian can be used in a similar manner as “Adl”, with a meaning of “right, valid or authentic”. This would also explain why the last character of the word on some specimen has such a long upturned tail.

Perhaps one of our members may provide further insight ?

Offline aws22

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Re: Great Mongols; Möngke khan, AE Jou, 655AH ?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2018, 12:07:07 PM »
Dear Anthony, the word " Jou جو " in Persian means: barley, grain or atmosphere.
In Arabic it means: atmosphere, ambience, mood or weather.

Maythem
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 04:07:44 PM by aws22 »
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Great Mongols; Möngke khan, AE Jou, 655AH ?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2018, 12:32:18 PM »
I have an example of a coin with the word jou, here is a Mehrabanid anonymous type, the dot below jim is visible,  the ticket gives the reading as jou= barley grain.

Should we expect the reference to a barley grain to indicate a diminutive size to the coin or a low weight ?  this one is 9mm  (1.45g)
Vic

Offline THCoins

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Re: Great Mongols; Möngke khan, AE Jou, 655AH ?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2018, 09:42:44 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion Maythem and Vic !
I have one of those Mehrabanids also, see below. Mine is 10 mm, with a bit more of the "Zarb Nimruz" visible on the other side.
The relation to a barley grain is a possibility, though the spelling on the coin is جوی , which seems to have been more linked to a meaning as "stream or brook". It is not clear to me why the ی Ye character is also dotted though ? (but جوئ might be translated as "good" again.)
From the sharp angle in the initial letter a Jim or Ha seem the only likely possibilities. The Mehrabanid is undoubtedly Jim, but this is from Sistan, far more to the West and 50 or more years later than the opening post coin
And as food for thought, the second coin below shows a very similar curl on the horse (Tye#236 from Bamiyan), but if this is intended as text it more looks like دو "Du" now.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 09:58:07 PM by THCoins »