Author Topic: Macedonia: Country name to be modified  (Read 302 times)

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Offline chrisild

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Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« on: June 13, 2018, 06:37:09 PM »
Today I read that Greece and Macedonia (FYROM) are about to make a deal regarding the name of the latter country. Apparently the two prime ministers Alexis Tsipras and Zoran Zaev agreed upon "Severna Makedonija" (Northern Macedonia) for the independent country - this way the conflict (due to Macedonia also being the name of a Greek region) can come to an end.

Source: Der Spiegel (German)

Christian

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2018, 08:15:31 PM »
While this should have happened long ago, it's good that this childish non-issue is solved. It will save energy and time and at last open the way for goodwill, trade and development. Both countries can use that. As a bonus, coin collectors get a new series of coins.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Henk

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2018, 09:51:20 PM »
Just in the news: The president of Macedonia. or is it FYROM? refuses to sign the agreement. Also in Greece there is much opposition to the name North Macedonia. So the discussion continues!

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2018, 08:06:45 AM »
I've never understood this dispute, and understand even less the international community's (mostly the EU's) pandering to Greek childishness on the matter. It's nobody else's business what a country calls itself, and the Greeks should have been told this in no uncertain terms back in the 90s.

Offline Pabitra

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2018, 08:19:55 AM »
Belgium has a province Luxembourg which borders sovereign nation of Luxembourg. They never had any such problem.
India and Pakistan, both have states, Punjab and despite all territorial disputes, they also never had any problem with common name.

Offline chrisild

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2018, 03:17:31 PM »
Basically I agree that this name debate has been pretty silly. But that is true for both sides ...

Don't know about Punjab, but the case of Luxembourg is a little different from the Macedonia issue, I think. Both today's grand duchy and the Belgian province used to be part of Luxembourg until that country was "split" in the 1830s. That was not the case with Macedonia. Also, the Macedonian constitution had an article that says the republic supports the right of Macedonians in neighboring countries and wants to strengthen their ties to the motherland. Guess that was perceived as a territorial threat by some in Greece.

Then again, Macedonia (the republic) has made quite a few concessions since then, from modifying the constitution to not using the Vergina Star any more, they removed the reference to Alexander the Great from the name of Skopje's airport, etc. It is about time to end the Greek blockade, so what the two prime ministers did was right, I think. But maybe the pro-Russian and the "you just cannot trust them" voices in the two countries are still too strong?

In other words, when I read about the (planned) agreement, I thought, aha, this will affect future coins too. But since the debate is apparently far from "over" yet, this topic would be equally well placed in the Living Room. ;)

Christian

Offline quaziright

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2018, 03:38:16 PM »
Yes, the Macedonian issue is different from the Luxembourg and Punjab situations. The Punjab on either side of the border were originally part of the larger Punjab province until 1947. The Indian side has further carved out the Punjab region into multiple states

Offline quaziright

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2018, 03:43:02 PM »
I may be wrong, but the way I understand it, the Greeks are portraying the FYROM as usurpers of their heritage, especially since the people over there are Slavic and migrated to that region well after Alexander’s time. I imagine it is akin to White New Zealanders telling the aborigines that they are just as Maori as anyone else. It’s not hard to see that as a slap in the face of Greece, let alone the territorial/patent/trademark and other consequences that would crop up

Offline Pabitra

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2018, 07:22:24 PM »
Yes, the Macedonian issue is different from the Luxembourg and Punjab situations. The Punjab on either side of the border were originally part of the larger Punjab province until 1947. The Indian side has further carved out the Punjab region into multiple states

But in case very similar to this, Bengal on either side of the border was carved in to West Bengal in India whereas East Bengal was never called East Bengal but was called East Pakistan till 1971 and Bangladesh later on.

Only in case of Sudan, the new nation carved out, called itself South Sudan without insisting Sudan to call itself North Sudan.

Offline quaziright

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2018, 07:42:05 PM »
But in case very similar to this, Bengal on either side of the border was carved in to West Bengal in India whereas East Bengal was never called East Bengal but was called East Pakistan till 1971 and Bangladesh later on.

Only in case of Sudan, the new nation carved out, called itself South Sudan without insisting Sudan to call itself North Sudan.

Not sure what's the point of your reference to bangladesh. That would be no different as luxembourg or the punjab. On Sudan, it would have been Sudan's insistence that South Sudan call itself something else as it is the original entity if one were to use the analogy of FYROM & Greece. However, again, Sudan & south Sudan are different, because unlike FYROM, south Sudan was indeed borne out of Sudan itself. 

Offline <k>

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2018, 08:33:38 PM »
Northern Ireland, North Korea, North Vietnam. These were / are not happy countries. Now Northern Macedonia.  :-\

Offline quaziright

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2018, 09:31:31 PM »
Hmm..officially DPRK where the sun shines and the cherry blossoms are perpetually in blossom as long as there is a Dear Leader. Was North Vietnam ever called that? Not sure if Vietnam is not a happy country. When I travelled there, people seemed very friendly. By contrast, the brits always seem to have a disposition corresponding to their weather, mostly grey and forelorn. I wonder if Brexit has perked them up any, now that they are taking their country back ;)

Offline <k>

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2018, 10:10:16 PM »
Just as well you don't get any grey and forlorn weather in Canada, eh?

Offline quaziright

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2018, 10:14:43 PM »
Just as well you don't get any grey and forlorn weather in Canada, eh?

Sometimes, but then again, we aren’t brits.. just ask Vancouver ;)

Offline Pabitra

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Re: Macedonia: Country name to be modified
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2018, 04:20:09 AM »
Not sure what's the point of your reference to bangladesh. That would be no different as luxembourg or the punjab. On Sudan, it would have been Sudan's insistence that South Sudan call itself something else as it is the original entity if one were to use the analogy of FYROM & Greece. However, again, Sudan & south Sudan are different, because unlike FYROM, south Sudan was indeed borne out of Sudan itself.

I was talking of conventions.
Conventions indicate that
1. when a country is carved out of a state in a country then the new country can use its old name - example Luxembourg; exception - Bengal / Bangladesh

2. When a country is carved out of country then they both use directional adjective - example Germany, Korea, Vietnam; exception - Sudan

3. When a state in a new country is carved out of state in another country then both can continue with old name- example Punjab; exception Kashmir


In international matters, conventions are more acceptable than any rule by UN