Author Topic: Qarakhanid with fish  (Read 613 times)

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Offline Figleaf

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Qarakhanid with fish
« on: February 25, 2018, 11:54:43 AM »
Fals, I presume, bears a strong resemblance to this coin, but significantly lighter. I am hoping this is Shash also. Copper, 1.9 gram, 26.4 mm. Colour changed by my effort to make the legends as clear as possible. Info and references would be much appreciated.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 11:33:10 AM by THCoins »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2018, 01:01:20 PM »
Interesting but I'm trying to find the fish  ??? 
Vic

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2018, 01:36:52 PM »
First picture, inside the circle, head at 9 o'clock, tail at 3 o'clock.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2018, 02:27:24 PM »
First picture, inside the circle, head at 9 o'clock, tail at 3 o'clock.

Peter

I see it now,  8)
Vic

Offline saro

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2018, 02:56:56 PM »
a fish with a trout tail and a shark fin...  :D
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2018, 03:52:39 PM »
:) Perhaps. I prefer to think of it as a Coelacanth. That's a really big fish that occurs in rivers and it fights well and spectacularly, so it would be a fitting royal symbol in a country with big rivers.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2018, 10:55:17 PM »
I prefer to think of it as a Coelacanth.
You are right Peter, it looks well like
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline andyg

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2018, 11:34:06 PM »
:) Perhaps. I prefer to think of it as a Coelacanth. That's a really big fish that occurs in rivers and it fights well and spectacularly, so it would be a fitting royal symbol in a country with big rivers.

Peter

That's very clever of them - they weren't discovered until 1938 in the Indian Ocean :)
Do you possibly mean the Goonch?
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2018, 12:32:13 AM »
Re-discovered in 1938. They were thought to be extinct. However, they are now considered the oldest fish species still alive. Extinct branches (most were dodo-ed in pre-historic times) were found just about everywhere. The more difficult problem is rather that the rivers of what is now Uzbekistan end in the Aral sea. I have no idea if Coelacanths occurred in any river in the Karakhanid empire.

The same problem for the goonch/catfish, but its distinctive "moustache" and sharp-pointed tail would exclude it from being on this coin, I think. There is a similar fish that is a delicacy in Italy, but I can't think of the name...

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline andyg

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2018, 12:02:10 PM »
Perhaps then it's a Bombay duck ???
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2018, 11:33:28 PM »
While I enjoyed the fish discussion, I was really hoping for a lead on the ruler, so I could place it in time ...

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline toofast

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2018, 03:40:17 AM »
Muhammad b. Ali is mentioned on this coin (reverse: 'Ilek'; obverse: 'Padsha 'adl').
It is known that Muhammad was Arslan-ilek at that time.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2018, 08:26:13 AM »
First class as usual, toofast. Don't know how you do it, but very grateful you can.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Qarakhanid with fish
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2018, 12:33:19 PM »
Thanks, this is very informative. See also here on World of Coins.
I put my two next to each other. They have been made in a rather different style. That fish is strange!

- -  Paul