Author Topic: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?  (Read 988 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline THCoins

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4 777
Having a lot of Jitals i sometimes encounter specimen which can not straightforward be linked to a type previously published in Tye's Jitals or G&G. Often this are crude copies which possibly were minted outside of the official circuit and are not really worth catalogueing separately. Less often i see a coin type where i think that a new (sub-)type would be appropriate. To be sure, some patience may be in place to collect multiple specimen to support this claim.

Below are two coins which may constitute an unpublished new Bull and Horseman Jital type. Now i could write an essay here what i think of these coins. But there are several specialists on these on WoC. So i just give you the uninterpreted challenge. What is special about these coins, and who should they be attributed to ? (Or in case you know that this type has been published elsewhere before, please let me know !)

Anthony

(both 14 mm, first 3.67, second 3.55 gr)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 03:24:05 PM by THCoins »

Offline capnbirdseye

  • Vic
  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5 692
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2017, 11:09:27 AM »
According to the eminent Shailen Bhandare these are of  Muizuddin Bahram Shah but the legend noted for the Jitals of this ruler is 'Muajadeena', मुअजदीण whereas on these coins, it is written as 'Mueejadina' मुइजदीण
Vic

Offline THCoins

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4 777
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2017, 02:02:18 PM »
Knew i could count on you Vic !
Do you mean to say that Shailendre Bhandare has a previous publication on these ? If so, i would love to have the reference, for i could not find any.

Edit: in the meantime i found a specimen on Zeno, cataloged under Iltutmish which could very well be an even cruder version of the cointype above.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 07:48:26 PM by THCoins »

Offline capnbirdseye

  • Vic
  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5 692
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2017, 04:36:15 PM »
enquiries are continuing  8)
Vic

Offline THCoins

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4 777
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2017, 07:10:14 PM »
I agree with the most likely attribution of this coin to Mu'izz-ud-Din Bahram Shah, ruler of Dehli, 1240-42AD.
The only other sensible candidates would be Mu'izz-ud-Din Muhammad bin Sam, or Mu'izz-ud-Din Kaikubad. The last ruled 40 years after the last Dehli bull and horseman Jitals were minted. The first seems to early considering the style of these coins and the shape of the Sri character on the horse side.
The key tot the recognition of these coins was the "I" character above the bull which looks like two horizontal dots with a crescent below. Left of this is "Mu" making "Mu-I" then there is not much choice anymore even if the "Ja" or "Ju" character to the right is written in an uncommon way.
Below for comparison is a "regular" bull and horseman Jital of Bahram Shah. In view of the differences in design and also the scriptstyle if would think it very plausible that the previous two coins were not minted at the main mint in Delhi. Whether this was an official production from a subsidiary mint or a series of counterfeits is something we probably will never know. In this respect it is interesting though that the metal quality of these two new specimen seems better than the average of my Bahram Shah Jitals.

Offline THCoins

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4 777
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2017, 12:08:29 PM »
Short addition to this thread. In a recent other thread i postulated that the bull and horseman Jitals of Iltutmish might be separated into different mint series. One of the arguments was that different stylistic variants did not occur in isolation but seemed to span the reign of different rulers.
In this thread i showed some newly secognized Jital variants which might be attributed to Mu'izz-ud-din Bahram Shah.
I showed these in isolation. So they just appeared as stray variants, or possibly counterfeits.
The coin below may give some support that the startpost coins were also part of a distinct mint series. The design of the bull and horse is very much conform the startpost coins. Also the script style of "Sri" behind the horseman is similar. The big difference is the text around the bull which fits with a crude version of "Sri SaMaSa{DiNa}". So this coin was likely issued under the rule of Shams-ud-din Iltutmish. Though it remains difficult to group coins merely by style, the coin below might represent an earlier issue from the same mintworkshop which produced the Mu'izz specimen.
(15 mm, 3.81 gr)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 12:20:30 PM by THCoins »

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27 091
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2017, 09:10:18 PM »
Mayb it's time to pull all the arguments, coins and indications together for a coherent article that challenges people to come up with a better explanation?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline THCoins

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4 777
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2017, 09:20:23 PM »
No coherent article yet. Just setting out the lines and expanding upon the work of R. Tye and others. The new catalog will come, but in a relaxed pace  8)

Offline Tariq

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 429
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2018, 07:28:21 PM »
Identification Help Required for these Jitals. Looks similar to Dehli Sultan Muizz al-Din Bahram Shah.
Weight approx 3.3 grams.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 01:31:57 PM by capnbirdseye »

Offline THCoins

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4 777
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2018, 08:44:25 PM »
Great to see some more of this type surfacing!
These are not in Tye's Jitals, but i agree with you this was likely issued under Bahram shah.
For a previous discussion and more specimen, with additional parts of the legend, look in this thread.

Anthony

Offline Tariq

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 429
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2018, 08:52:19 PM »
Thanx Anthony for the confirmation. From memory, few years ago I had seen this type of coin in a collection of very senior collector whose collection was 25+ years old. There it was attributed as Muizz al Din Bahram Shah.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 08:47:33 PM by Tariq »

Offline Tariq

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 429
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2018, 03:01:04 PM »

Offline capnbirdseye

  • Vic
  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5 692
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2018, 04:43:13 PM »
topics now merged
Vic

Offline Tariq

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 429
Re: Sultans of Dehli,unpublished Jitals of Mu'iz-ud-din Bahram Shah ?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2018, 05:06:45 PM »
Thanx Vic