Author Topic: Iran, Civic copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034  (Read 1640 times)

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Offline capnbirdseye

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Iran, Civic copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« on: December 11, 2016, 06:45:55 PM »
A reasonably good one, better than the example on zeno although someone disputes the reading of the mint.

Looking at the drawing in Valentine I can see where the date should be and 34 is visible so AH 1034
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 04:38:41 PM by capnbirdseye »
Vic

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2016, 07:40:28 AM »
It seems you got really lucky with Iranian coppers, cap'n. I wish more were as well preserved as this one.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2016, 09:55:33 AM »
A reasonably good one, better than the example on zeno although someone disputes the reading of the mint.
A really good examplar for this rare coin  :applause:
The question of the existence of this mint questioned on ZENO is interesting ... I notice that this mint is recorded by authors of last XIX / beginning XXth c., like  S.Poole & H.W Valentine but isn't reported by today authors like R.Matthee or  Bahram Alaedini and the city seems to be unknown on the web, but M.Mitchiner associated it as Dezful in Khuzistan.

On your coin, what could be the signs at 2, 5, 7  and 12 o'clock ? (if not a "R" at 2 o'clock ?)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 11:07:23 AM by saro »
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Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2016, 10:50:09 AM »
There are refs to Ranash on the internet Bernard,  here is a clip from  Spurlock Museum of World Cultures at ILLINOIS  which mentions Ranash, also I found a ref which lists it as Ranash (Ramhurmuz) in brackets.

I can see what you mean re the possibility that an 'R' is indeed present on the coin, I'll see if anyone comments on zeno
Vic

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2016, 10:52:51 AM »
It seems you got really lucky with Iranian coppers, cap'n. I wish more were as well preserved as this one.

Peter

yes, a good find, did you notice the multitude of fine cuts or scratches all over the coin ? I wonder how that came about
Vic

Offline saro

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2016, 12:07:10 PM »
on Zeno, I also notice that "Ra'nash" has been swept from the cities list of anonymous civic copper to reach now the "Shah's coinage" section (with coins in name of 'Abbas / no mint ?)  to be continued...
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 02:24:34 PM by saro »
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2016, 01:19:26 PM »
yes, a good find, did you notice the multitude of fine cuts or scratches all over the coin ? I wonder how that came about

I can only speculate, but you seem to have remembered that I am not above speculating. It looks like the coin was at one time harshly cleaned, as the lines run in multiple parallel lines. I guess it spent a considerable time in a harsh environment and was found sticking out of a ball of unspeakable goo, taken to a small time dealer, who "cleaned" it and sold it to a big city dealer.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2016, 08:56:06 PM »
Gandzak on zeno added a comment that There is no "rā" above "bā", but just decorative feature. Letter "rā" never been written in this "curvy" way.

I added that: If the mint is not present on the coin then how is it that the coin has Zarb at the bottom? This is not visible on #124598 and not visible on Valentines coin but very clear and shown for the first time on my coin which gives good evidence for the original identification.
The ra on my coin only appears curved because it touches the top of alif, Valentines picture shows a clear ra separate from alif



I think my point re the word zarb clearly points to a mint being present is a very valid point which cannot be overlooked
Vic

Offline saro

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2016, 10:08:49 AM »
I possess 2 coins in bad grade but with parts of legends still legible and one of them also shows "zarb" at bottom, and I agree with you Vic : that should follow a mintname and not a ruler's name, I think.
The coin n°112 of S.Poole catalog of "Coins of Shah of Persia" shows the "re (?)" of Ra'nash at right of the word "falus" ; the "sign" in question above "na" (in case of "Ra'nash") or "ba" (in case of 'Abbas" ???) could be well an ornament ?
I join a picture taken from a plate of the book to have an idea; unfortunately not with very sharp details....
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 11:08:36 AM by saro »
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Offline THCoins

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2016, 10:13:53 AM »
Unfortunately i can give no helpfull input. But i follow the discussion with interest !

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2016, 10:28:10 AM »
I contacted Stan Goron who now collects in this area and he agrees 100% that the mint is Ran'ash and the word Abbas would not occur with out 'Shah' but the reply on zeno does not agree :

 Thank you for uploading this important image, that clearify reding of the coin that is "zarb fulus-e 'Abbas", i.e. struck fulus of Abbas.

The letter "rā" never wrore on the coins in this way, just compare with the coins of Tabriz, Ardabil or Irawan. And by the way, you can see the same curvy "ra"-like element near to "sin".
Moreover, there are 1) no clear evidences for existing of the toponym "Ra'nash", 2) this "mint" never struck any copper coins except of this year and absolutly no silver coin that is absolutly non-sense for Iranian tradition of coin producing, 3) for the whole reign of Abbas I we don't know any coins from the mints but only with the name of shah.
   

Vic

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2016, 12:06:52 PM »
Both sides need an open mind. Here is my feeble contribution: I note that Richard Plant* translates zarb (he transcribes it as zuriba) as "was struck, minted", which leaves the question of whether the next word is in or by. However, when ضرب (zarb) is followed by في (fi), it is inevitably followed by a mint name.

Peter

* Arabic coins and how to read them, chapter III, vocabulary.
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2016, 10:14:27 AM »
I contacted Stan Goron who now collects in this area and he agrees 100% that the mint is Ran'ash and the word Abbas would not occur with out 'Shah' but the reply on zeno does not agree :

  2) this "mint" never struck any copper coins except of this year ... 3) for the whole reign of Abbas I we don't know any coins from the mints but only with the name of shah.

To add some spice to the discussion....
- Coins dated 1030 and 1034 are listed in "Coins of the Shah of Persia", and I have with me a coin which is dated 1034 ?
 - I possess 3 examplars of the same civic copper coin of Yazd  struck at time of Shah 'Abbas I, dated 1014 AH and without the Shah's name on it (a monkey on reverse)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 04:31:40 PM by saro »
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Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2016, 10:55:44 AM »
The discussion thread on Facebook is now hugely long!  so far we have found evidence that Ra'nash  did exist as it is disputed on zeno, Seems it my have become a ruin since the time of Abbas I
Vic

Offline saro

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Re: Iran, Civiv copper, Lion & Sun, Ra'nash mint, AH 1034
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2016, 11:04:22 AM »
Very interesting! and that confirms what is written by M. Mitchiner (World of Islam / mints listing) for Ra'nash :"Dizful in Khuzistan"
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)