Nepales coins cut for use in Tibet

[Gusev]

While the Nepalese mohars were circulating in Tibet, they were frequently cut for use as small change, as none of the smaller denomination Nepalese coins were used by the Tibetans.
The two Nepalese mohars types which are mostly encountered as cut fragments are the mohar of Jaya Prakash Malla dated NS 856/1736 AD (photo 1) and the mohar of Pratap Simha dated SE 1697-1699/1775-1777 AD (photo 2).

The denomination of the Nepalese mohars was 1.5 Sho.
The natural subdivisions were 2/3 (=1 Sho), photo 3, 1/2 (=3/4 Sho), photo 4, and 1/3 (=1/2 Sho), photo 5. Very conveniently, it was noticed that a straight line cut leaving 5 petals visible on the reverse produced a piece weighing almost exactly 2/3rd of the full coin. Similarly, if 4 petals were visible the coin was clearly cut in half, and if 3 petals were visible, then the coin was worth 1/3rd of the full coin.

The denomination could be calculated just by counting the petals.
In the early part  of the 20th century, it became acceptable to cut away the surplus silver, often producing a horseshoe shaped piece of silver.
Kept by the silver smith as payment for the cutting, although the denomination was still assessed according to the number of petals visible. The parts still circulated at the value of the whole coin.
All the silver clippings could be melted down and used for other purposes.

Source:
N.Rhodes "The coinage of Nepal"
W.Bertsch, N.Rhodes "The use of cut coins in Tibet"

[THCoins]

Thanks for showing and telling the background ! Quite ingenious system.

[Gusev]

....... Quite ingenious system.

Yes, in Tibet Buddhist symbols image costs more silver.

[Figleaf]

If the silversmiths take payment, why wouldn't people cut the coin themselves?

Peter

[Gusev]

If the silversmiths take payment, why wouldn't people cut the coin themselves?

First, the silversmith cut off at the edges of a coin.
Later bit off traders.
IMHO

[EWC]

I suspect few - if any - people know what was really happening.  Nick (sadly missed!) probably just recorded the oral tradition that he heard about what happened  - but I am pretty sure that he would have admitted it was not very reliable.

There have been two big outbreaks of clipping in England in the accessible historical period.  One of gold in the 1770's which was in part an anti-government protest, the other of silver in the 1690's which seems to me to be indirectly driven by government interests.

I have read that shortages of small change existed in Ladakh as late as the 1970's.  Understanding that matter, if it is correct, might assist.........................

Rob

[Figleaf]

That gives me a handle for speculation. A shortage of small coin could well lead to coins being cut up. While this would lead to more low value coins, it would diminish the supply of high value coins. The total money supply would not change. This is the case of medieval coins that could be cut in halves and quarters. The problem is where to cut. The symbols on the edge would be good guidance, just like the cross on medieval coins. The center of the coin would remain intact.

A different and likely later development is silver becoming more expensive as a result of a shortage of silver, i.e. deflation, possibly because economic growth is outrunning the growth of the silver supply. As Tibet is relatively isolated, the global silver price may have been irrelevant in the local situation, especially if the population would only accept its own silver coins (for religious reasons?) In that situation, removing the centre from coins already cut without a change in value would have been natural. The silver supply increases.

I would expect that the silver smiths would be the first to note that the cut coins were too heavy. The removed centre would not be a payment, but a profit they would take on heavy coins received from the unwary. The analogous situation would be the privately cut and stamped parts of large Spanish colonial coins in the Caribbean and Australia.

Peter

[Gusev]

I suspect few - if any - people know what was really happening.  Nick (sadly missed!) probably just recorded the oral tradition that he heard about what happened  - but I am pretty sure that he would have admitted it was not very reliable.......

Dear Rob.
The article "The use of cut coins in Tibet" W.Bertsch and N.Rhodes has a link to the source of the information.

"The first reliable reference to the cutting of coins was made by Capt. Samuel Turner, who visited Shigatse in 1783, and reported that "a very small quantity of specie, and that of a base standard, is current in Tibet. It is the silver coin of Nepal, here termed Indermillee; each is in value worth about one-third of a sicca rupee, and they are cut into halves, third parts and quarters" (Turner, 1971, p.372).
Making allowance for the error in determining the precise denominations represented by the cut fractions, it is clear from this account that cut coins were in common circulation at least by 1783.
We also know that the Nepalese did not fully approve of the cutting of their coins, since it was agreed in the Treaty of Khasa, signed by Tibet and Nepal in 1790 AD, that "mohars issued by the Shri Shri Shri Shri Shri Gorkha (Maharajadhiraja)  shall not be cut (into several parts) (Sreedhar, 1988, p.263, appendix IV)".
Several western travellers in Tibet observed cut coins in use in the nineteenth and early twentieth century, but Abbé Huc was the first known person to have brought examples back to Europe in the mid 19th century. A set of three cut pieces that he brought back are now in the coin cabinet of the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris (Huc and Gabet, 1928, vol.2, p.180; Terrien de la Couperie, 1881, p.340, footnote 1).
During the first quarter of the 20th century an increasing number of foreigners visited Tibet, and some of these visitors mention the use of cut coins. By this time the centre of the coin was often cut out and kept by the silver smith as payment for the cutting, although the denomination was still assessed according to the number of petals visible. However, these light weight cut pieces only seem to have been accepted at face value in the urban centres of Central Tibet, i.e. Lhasa, Gyantse and Shigatse."

W.Bertsch sometimes gives comments on this website. It is interesting to know his opinion.

[Figleaf]

I suggest you write him a PM, requesting his comment. Please remember I am just speculating, but also that the "payment of the silversmith" story doesn't sound rational.

Peter

[EWC]

I suggest you ]write him a PM[/url], requesting his comment. Please remember I am just speculating, but also that the "payment of the silversmith" story doesn't sound rational.

I am with Peter on this.  I too am just speculating but in somewhat parallel instances it can be very difficult to get information.  Powerful vested interests tend to be involved, and testimony should be read with caution. 

I remember standing in the street in Kathmadhu in 1978 and there was a large political protest march going through town.  A Nepalese guy I recognised was watching next to me (he worked in a cafe I had used) - so I asked him what the protest was about.  But all he would say was "they are country people" .

I take this from memory - but I recall the UK parliamentary investigation into trucking in Shetland around 1880 met the same sort of problems.  MPs knew trucking was going on, but next to no would testify accurately about it.

Out of 8,000 statements this one stands out as indicating the truth of what was going on:

MP:  What is the price of meal (porridge oats) at the local shop?

Fisherman:  I do not know

MP:  Is it not foolish not to know what price you are paying?

Fisherman:  Why would I ask?  There is only one shop.

Perhaps there was some sort of "credit de deception" going on? (pardon my French)

Rob

[Gusev]

I suggest you write him a PM, requesting his comment. Please remember I am just speculating, but also that the "payment of the silversmith" story doesn't sound rational.

It's a good idea.
I will write an e-mail to Wolfgang.

[everastranger]

The cutting of Nepalese Mohars in Tibet (actually it was never done in Nepal) was practised because there were no fractional coins in Tibet. Nepal had the monopoly of minting coins for Tibet (until the late 18th century)and only sent full mohars which were paid for by the Tibetans in silver ingots or in gold. Minting 400 quarter or 200 half Mohars would have been more work intensive and costly than minting 100 mohars - the Nepalese wanted to make as much profit as possible;  moreover quarter mohars  would not have fitted into the currency system of Tibet: 1 mohar = 1 tangka = 15 skar = 1.5 sho. The cut pieces were: half mohar = 7 1/2 skar; one third mohar = 5 skar; 2/3  mohar = 1 sho or 10 skar.
Why did the Tibetan people (starting in the late 19th century) not cut the mohars themselves? They probably did, at least those who had the necessary tools for this operation i.e. a stone or iron anvil, a knife or a sword and a hammer. Others were using the services of silver smiths. Whoever did the cutting of the full mohars into fractions and cut away further bits and pieces until the fractions looked like a sickle or crescent, certainly did not do it for fun or because of boredom, but to get some profit or considered it as a form of payment which is pretty  much the same.

Actually Sichuan rupees were also cut in half or into four quarters in eastern Tibet, because not enough half and quarter rupees were struck in Chengdu. The German Explorer Schäfer reports that some of the half rupees (as result of cutting)  also had taken the shape of sickles. However, I have never come accross such a piece.

[EWC]

The cutting of Nepalese Mohars in Tibet (actually it was never done in Nepal) was practised because there were no fractional coins in Tibet. Nepal had the monopoly of minting coins for Tibet (until the late 18th century) and only sent full mohars which were paid for by the Tibetans in silver ingots or in gold. Minting 400 quarter or 200 half Mohars would have been more work intensive and costly than minting 100 mohars - the Nepalese wanted to make as much profit as possible;

Good to see that you are not taking the simplistic demand side explanation of such matters.  Clearly many Tibetans demanded small change, and Nepal had it, but demand and adjacent supply on their own were apparently not enough.

But I continue to suspect its more complicated than even you say.  One would have thought, if the Tibetans had any ability as negotiators at all, they could if they wished have bought stocks of small coin too for their bullion.  After all – the Nepalese tend more than any other government in world history to give the lie to this "work intensive" argument - as they routinely made 1/128th mohars for their own population.

moreover quarter mohars  would not have fitted into the currency of Tibet: 1 mohar = 1 tangka = 15 skar = 1.5 sho.

As I understand it, as a "currency" this is not expressed before the 20th century.  Was it expressed in earlier monies of account – and if so, do we know when it began?

Rob

[coincoin.com]

A few observations from a dealer who has always found these cut pieces fascinating:

1)  When you collect by base coin, denomination, and stage of cut (straight / center gone / edges gone), and especially if you look for dated bits, there are some genuinely scarce "types".
2)  Chinese collectors, and some others who collect Tibetan disfavor this series, so you can find them bulk lotted very cheaply in auctions sometimes.
3)  When you find later types cut, it is usually obliquely, as with shears, and not respecting the petals.  This was done for melting, and not for circulation.  For example, the Gaden Tangka was probably never cut for circulation.

[Gusev]

A few observations from a dealer who has always found these cut pieces fascinating:

1)  When you collect by base coin, denomination, and stage of cut (straight / center gone / edges gone), and especially if you look for dated bits, there are some genuinely scarce "types".
2)  Chinese collectors, and some others who collect Tibetan disfavor this series, so you can find them bulk lotted very cheaply in auctions sometimes.
3)  When you find later types cut, it is usually obliquely, as with shears, and not respecting the petals.  This was done for melting, and not for circulation.  For example, the Gaden Tangka was probably never cut for circulation.

Thanks for the addition on the topic.
I bought from you several books and it was always very profitable.