Nejd (and Hejaz) countermarks

[natko]

I realized whole suspicious Nejd listings were recently removed from SCWC. Silver countermarks under Hejaz listings stay with a note of being dubious.

What's the verdict? These were privately produced in the time? Just like nickel 5 and 10 para... That leaves whole series with only 20 and 40 para from Hejaz which are being faked more and more recently.

In attachment Nejd c/m is shown, image from Frühwald, 2012.

[capnbirdseye]

Your link appears to have gone astray

[Levantiner]

if y they are found on Maria theresa thalers they are modern fakes!!!

[natko]

Sorry, didn't realize acsearch doesn't allow full size pics unless logged in. That's a new one, I always did that, thanks for pointing up! I attached the pic to the post now.

Levantiner, why is that? MT thaler was very popular in the area. Surely, if we talk about varieties made after the c/m dates, they're fakes, but otherwise...

[Levantiner]

I have spent 15 years researching the MTT.  I won't go into the full detail( it would be  pages long) the only genuine counter marks on MTT from that region were the ones produced in Mozambique. The MTT was a regional reserve currency, as Mozambique discovered counter-marked MTT ended up being accepted at a much lower premium. Effectively any authority countermarking the coins was devalueing them.  After two  attempts at countermarkign Mozabique gave up  as arabic sea traders refused to accept them with the follow on effect that locals refused to accept the coins.

MTTs with the Hejaz and Nejd only turned up in the 1950's- 60s most likely produced in Yemen for American oil workers... who took them to america where they turned up in some auctions... prior to that time the only accounts are of low denomination non silver coins being marked.     I will finish this  with Hans Wilkis comments ( Countermarks on Ottoman coins:

For both Nejd and Hejaz  he writes  that in his opinion all counter-marks on silver coins are modern forgeries and all Nejd countermarks are modern forgeries. I have  done a considerable amount of research and can not fault Wilski!!!

I have found 19th century evidence of Chopmarks on MTTs so there are genuine chop marked examples... but with so many obviously counterfeited examples in the market  finding a genuine chop marked MTT has odds only slightly better than those for winning the Euro millions.   I have found records  in the British national archives reporting cupro-nickel and copper coins being counter-marked in the  Hejaz...but I have found absolutely nothing in historical records regarding countermarks on silver coins.  Currently there are some Saudi sellers who are producing  Hejaz and Nejd countermarked MTTs in other words they are the countermarking the  coins to order!!!!  I

I will say this emphatically: If you can't identify an MTT to mint and period of striking and you buy a counter-marked MTT your an idiot!!!

Allegedly a  book of counter-marks mixing real counter-marks with deliberate forgeries is fooling a great many people... auctioneers in Europe particularly fruwald  are actually referring to that work as authoritative.  In my area of research the claims in that book are false!!!   That Salzburg Auction house received a lot of criticism over the countermarked coins listed in Auction 104... most were unsold and resurface in each new Auction. I have examined a number of those coins at Numismata Wien and a significant number are obvious( and easily proved fakes) fakes  causing considerable doubt on the others they have. I buy from fruwald..... but  never  those coins!!!!


I refer you to this facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/monedafalsa/482964051737107/

[natko]

Thank you so much, excellent post, hats down! 

Completely understandable. So, basically they're not even private merchandise issues of the time, since it devalued them, they're even forgeries made to deceive the collectors.

Auction houses always do manipulate, unfortunately. I have once warned one of the biggest Austrian houses, whom I buy quite regularly from, that one piece is clearly misidentified, it was obvious Venetian 1 soldo instead of half, which is rare. First they neglected then said they will remove the lot from the auction. Which they didn't do at the end and eventually sold it somebody (also foolish, I would say) paid a worn 15 euro coin ten times more. I was shocked, but didn't want to react any further.

If Fruhwald has a bunch of these I can imagine they will have no problem to pass the ball of the buyer itself, to determine the legitimacy of the issue and decide on buying. Which is technically not cheating.

Thanks once again for helping me and others on this issue!