Author Topic: Saffarids of Sistan, Taj-ud-din Harb, Billon Jital  (Read 1224 times)

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Offline capnbirdseye

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Saffarids of Sistan, Taj-ud-din Harb, Billon Jital
« on: January 18, 2015, 12:00:40 PM »
Saffarids of Sistan, Taj-ud-din Harb,  1167-1215 AD  Billon Jital, Sistan mint

This is my identification from Tyes book 125.1  but I'm not certain but it looks most likely ?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 12:20:20 PM by THCoins »
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Saffarids of Sistan, Taj-ud-din Harb, Billon Jital
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2015, 08:45:23 AM »
The problem with the word billon is that it is undefined. This piece looks like copper to me, but I may have looked quite different at one time, of course. It does look identifiable, but I don't have the doc to confirm your id.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Saffarids of Sistan, Taj-ud-din Harb, Billon Jital
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2015, 10:47:50 AM »
The problem with the word billon is that it is undefined. This piece looks like copper to me, but I may have looked quite different at one time, of course. It does look identifiable, but I don't have the doc to confirm your id.

Peter

There are several very similar looking but are of different rulers, this one has Muhammad clearly visible (citing the Khwarizmshah ruler Muhammad) as per the drawing in Tye's book, silver content may be as low as just 10%
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Offline EWC

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Re: Saffarids of Sistan, Taj-ud-din Harb, Billon Jital
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2015, 12:21:18 PM »
Medieval Europeans made a useful distinction between black billon and white billon which I think was a step in the right direction

The crucial point for me is that copper seems usually have been 50:1 or 100:1 in value against silver.  So a 2% silver 98% copper coin may well have half its value in its silver.  Writing in 1320 or so, Thakkura Pheru mentions the silver content even when it is about 0.5% as I recall.

So I would call anything with deliberately added silver a billon.

This is an the issue of Harb.  My guess would be 2% silver – but that is just a wild guess.  Lutz Ilisch did a few analyses of Khwarezm Shah black billons of around this date and found some of them surprisingly high – around 5% as I recall.

The break point from appearance sake is surprisingly low.  Balban’s dugani can easily look like white billon at 9% silver.  Ala-ud-din’s dugani at 8% usually shows a lot less whiteness………

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Saffarids of Sistan, Taj-ud-din Harb, Billon Jital
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2015, 01:31:48 PM »
Harb is confirmed. Thank you. Can you confirm Tye 125.1 also?

My small point on billon was completely semantic. KM has abandoned the term, I believe, stating silver content instead, but in the past, they called both late Mexican silver (0.100 to 0.500) and early Swiss small change (0% silver) billon*. I am fine with calling anything from 0.010 to 0.200 billon for instance, provided that the definition is explained, but I'd avoid the word myself.

Peter

* I just saw they still do that in the 7th edition. AFAIK, these coins are Cu-Ni-Sn.
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Saffarids of Sistan, Taj-ud-din Harb, Billon Jital
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2015, 01:46:45 PM »
Harb is confirmed. Thank you. Can you confirm Tye 125.1 also?

This is Tye 125, I hadn't really noticed before but in Tyes book all the coin illustration numbers are given as .1 unless there are further varieties .2 etc
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