Author Topic: Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,  (Read 2417 times)

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Offline capnbirdseye

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Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,
« on: December 14, 2014, 08:09:27 PM »
Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,

Tye 343 , Steve Album A1987.4, RR
3.26g

Got this today at coin fair in a large lot ( 3 trays full  ;D) of Islamic coins  copper & silver, lots of interesting stuff for swapping etc. inc a nice persian Larin, mostly attributed but possibly labels mixed up, s
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 11:22:31 AM by THCoins »
Vic

Offline THCoins

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Re: Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2014, 11:45:22 AM »
You really have been busy lately ! Hope to see some more of your unearthed treasures.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2015, 02:58:41 PM »
You really have been busy lately ! Hope to see some more of your unearthed treasures.

The post was Dec last year 2014 , I've seemingly become a hoarder rather than a collector  :o, buying coins & then forgetting about them & then rediscovering them months later,  coins everywhere, all mixed up on my trays, need to get a grip before the men in white coats take me away  :D :D
Vic

Offline THCoins

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Re: Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2015, 08:25:24 PM »
I  may have caused some of your confusion, i moved this post recently because it was in a different category and i thought it should be in the Islamic index under the Mongol descendants. In addition, i wanted to add a post to this thread as i was offered a specimen of this type. However, we could not agree on the price, the seller wanted more than i was prepared to pay for a less than perfect coin. However, in the process i have been studying this type. For me, an interesting aspect is that one side shows a Nagari/Sharada script edge text around the center. This is given as "unread" in Tye's "Jitals". I was a bit surprized that this text seems still undeciphered to date, according to the references i encountered.
So currently i am trying to fill this gap and am already half-way, using purely pictures from freely available internet sources. Will add this here once i have a more or less reliable proposition. To give just a small hint:
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 08:50:43 PM by THCoins »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2015, 09:01:08 PM »
Have you considered that what you read as BA could be MI?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline THCoins

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Re: Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2015, 09:04:16 PM »
That would be a real worldclass revelation  ;D, but unfortunately it is not "Mi". Only Ba, Cha, and Va were candidates.
For people interested: The entire preliminary reading for now is ABaDaLa ShiPaTi ShaJa. Which seems to imply "Abdallah, chief of the Chagatai" but needs some more fine tuning.
A problem with these coins is that the inscription is often described as Nagari of Sharada, but it likely is a bit later regional variant of this. As a script this also has similarities with Takri, which is the script which evolved from Sharada north of Delhi, upto the Lahore region. For example Takri has a "wrong way round" Ha character, which is also seen on the bull and horseman Jitals of Lahore. The character left of the "A" could then be read as a Lahore type "Ha" with a virama (vowel silencer) attached. On some coins it is clear that transcription errors were sometimes made, like mirrored characters. If we postulate elements of Shahada-Takri evolution in the legends of these Chagatai coins the legend might be read as: "ABaDaLa ShaKhaTai ShaH". A name like "Abdallah" is intriguing in view that this coin is commonly attributed to Qutlugh Khwaja. According to history, Qutlugh Khwaja became chief of the Qara'unas in Afghanistan in 1298AD. This, after his father the Khan recalled the former local commander: Abdullah. That is to nice a co-incidence to overlook.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 08:18:14 PM by THCoins »

Offline THCoins

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Re: Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2016, 08:16:22 PM »
In the meantime i have been looking at more of these coins. The reading of ABaDaLa seemed clear, but AVaDaLa would be just as possible. The other part remained a problem. I wanted to read ShaKahTai, but that really is not what the evidence shows. Looking at some other Chagatai coins and Vic's recent Qa'an Al-Adil coin, another possible solution presented itself. The reading could very well be "Sri PaDiShaH ABaDaLa". Where the "Abadala" might refer to a person, or a title like Al-Dawla (of the dynasty). The latter would be a politically non-offensive text, who-ever was the ruler.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 07:29:45 PM by THCoins »

Offline THCoins

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Re: Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna, Album 1987.1
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2016, 03:49:06 PM »
Again an addition to an older thread with the intention of showing some different coins of this ruler in one thread.
The most commonly encountered coin issued under the authority of Qutlugh Khwaja is the one above. But there are several more types, all attributed to the Ghazna mint. In the Album checklist these are all classified as subtypes of Album 1987.

The coin shown here is Album 1987.1, Tye#340. This is a text-only Jital in Arab.
The obverse shows part of the Kalima. The reverse is given in Tye Jitals as: Qutlugh /Khwaja/ Sikkah.
In recent years there has been some discussion if there was a word behind Sikkah which indicated the mintname. But there were no specimen known with the entire mintname on flan. Recently, based on some newly surfaced specimen, the consensus is that the text should be read as سکه بنام خواجه قتلع,  "Sika benam Kwaja Qutlugh" "struck in the name of Khwaja Qutlugh' read from bottom to top.
Our member Vaxtankava expressed his doubts about this last reading recently on Zeno

The coin below indicates that Vaxtankava probably is correct, if we look at the lower line in the picture on the right.
At the right edge of the coin, only the end of "Sikka"is seen. To the left of this is the controversial word. On my specimen this seems fully complete upto the left edge of the coin. At the lower edge of the coin still is a trace of a dot below the right leg of the "W" shape, making the first character a "Ba". The dot above this is part of the "Jim" in the line above. I have been looking hard at the word to arrive at a final reading. li-balad, لبلد "of the land" is my best hypothesis. Not convinced yet, but one thing is certain, it does not read بنام "Benam" !

Suggestions are welcomed.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 10:41:53 PM by THCoins »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2016, 04:24:37 PM »
Your journeys into coin puzzles are a fascinating read, TH. Please feel encouraged to share your thinking with us, even if it's pretty hard to react on that level for us.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline THCoins

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Re: Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2016, 09:20:01 PM »
Adding another Qutlugh Khwaja coin. This is  Tye#341.2, Album-1987.5.
A nice contrast with the previous coins is that it has the tamgha of Duwa Khan, Qutlugh's father on the obverse.
A similarity with the previous two is that there also is some discussion about the inscription on these coins.

On Zeno, Steve Album notes: "Reverse text "sikka / khutlugh / khwaja," reading upwards." I have to disagree. It seems more likely that this should be read as "Khutlugh Khwaja Sikka" from top to bottom. In any case "Khwaja" is in the middle, and it is spelled a bit peculiar as "Khwa'Ha", where the "wa" is very flat resembling an "M". But there are other specimen where this is a clear "wa" curl.
In the same post mr Album writes "Obverse text seems to be "duriba bi-rasul," reference to uncertain mint."
The "Duriba/Dharb/Zarb" (just different transcriptions) is clearly present beneath the Tamgha. But the last word is also clearly present on my coin, and i can not make "rasul" of it. The last character is much more likely an R, the character before that is either an M or an (flattened like on the other side) Wa/U. So the word seems to end with "Smr" or "Swar". because of the word before, which Album reads as "bi" one option presents itself.
In another post on Zeno Vaxtankava presents a different Qutlugh Khwaja coin. Here is some discussion whether the mintname should be read as "Peshawar".
Taking this toghether my best hypothesis is that the text might indeed be read as "Zarb Peshawar" ضرب برشور  .
There have been doubts about the traditional attribution to Ghazna for a long time. Historically, Peshawar is certainly a possibility to consider.

As always, better options are welcomed.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 10:08:44 PM by THCoins »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Chaghatayid Khans, Qutlugh Khwaja (1299 AD) Jital, Ghazna,
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2016, 11:17:13 AM »
That mint name is important. Let's have some comments from others who read Arabic characters.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.