Author Topic: Ghorid, Mu`izz al-Din Muhammad b. Sam, 567- 602 A.H., AR dirham, (Ghazna)  (Read 2215 times)

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Offline andyg

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I posted this before I think...
Anyone recognise the script?

1.04g 17mm
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 04:46:52 PM by THCoins »
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline saro

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2014, 05:03:39 PM »
This coin is a dirhem or half dirhem of Saladin (according to its weight) / Ayyubids Dynasty.
The lower scan shows :
- in upper line : a fraction of Kalima "..rasul..
- and in 2nd line : "..Sal al-din.." (Saladin).

I just give here a direction, a reference is to find...


"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline Manzikert

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2014, 11:27:06 PM »
Unfortunately it doesn't resemble anything in Balog for Saladin: his coins only have three lines of legend in the squares on each side, and the lines of the squares are solid and beaded rather than both solid as on andyg's specimen. Also, I think it is much too sloppily struck to be Ayyubid.

Best wishes

Alan

Offline Afrasi

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2014, 01:32:54 AM »
Looks Ilkhanid to me.

Offline saro

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2014, 09:12:25 AM »
I agree, dear Manzikert and Afrasi, this coin doesn't look like an Ayyubid 1/2 dirhem...only the presence of "Saladin" leads me, at first view, to think to Ayyubid...
After a little more work on the legends, the formulas appear to be also used by Mamluks  ???
" al-duniya" / "saïf al-muzzafar" ( sword of the victorious)/ "al-malik" (the king) + part of Kalima

Among Mamluks rulers we have some "sword of din", saleh al-din" , "malik" and "amir"...
It's only tentative from the script, I'm not a specialist of these dynasties.
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline THCoins

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2014, 10:27:36 AM »
Thanks for posting the transcription. Still practicing my Arab skills and every bit helps !

Offline Manzikert

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 11:32:01 AM »
Thank you very much saro for the transcriptions: well beyond me.

According to Balog there were just four Mamluk sultans who were named Salah al-Din:
Al-Ashraf Salah al-Din Khalil
Al-Salih Salah al-Din Salih
Al-Mansur Salah al-Din Muhammad
and
Al Salih Salah al-Din Hajji II (2 reigns).

I've looked through Balog and I'm afraid I can't match up the coin legends to any of these. :(

Best wishes

Alan

Offline saro

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2014, 12:18:28 PM »
I see 3 possibilities :
1 - I am wrong in my transcriptions
2 - it's an unlisted variety
3 - it's the wrong way...

"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline saro

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2014, 02:48:07 PM »
And...it was the 3rd point ! due to a wrong transcription  :-\
The 1st word partially cut before "al-duniya.." (1st picture) is to read as "Muhammad" , the ruler's name ! and then all is clearer:
my mistake was to read "sal l-din" instead of "nasir al-din" with "na" separated from "sir" and which is well seen on the coin! (I have taken the "r" of nasir for a"L") :  It is the Caliph's name at the time of Muhammad II , Kwarezm Shah.

But I still haven't ref....

Sorry to have lead you on a wrong path ::)

"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline rasmir

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2014, 09:06:30 AM »
Ghorid, Mu`izz al-Din Muhammad b. Sam, 567- 602 A.H., AR dirham, (Ghazna)

Offline Manzikert

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2014, 01:17:29 PM »
Interesting: I have one of these and should have recognised the script and double square but didn't.

What weight is yours andyg?: the one below is 6.25 gm and 33.5 mm.

Alan

Offline andyg

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2014, 10:32:21 PM »
What weight is yours andyg?: the one below is 6.25 gm and 33.5 mm.

What's left of this one is just 1.04g.
I never thought I would get even this far with this one - thanks again.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline Manzikert

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Re: coin 4
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 12:57:24 PM »
One is often told that some Islamic silver was really just stamped bullion, and your piece might support this.

All I have seen up to now of this type have been full-flan pieces, but yours shows no obvious signs of having been clipped down from a full-flan example. If hoards are found with both full-flan and irregular-shaped low-weight ones like yours then I suspect the full-flan ones might be extracted and sent to the dealers, whilst the irregular-shaped and low-weight pieces would go straight to the melting pot.

Alternatively, perhaps so many pieces were supposed to be struck from a set weight of silver and this batch had a little bit left over, which was stamped just to authenticate it as money or just prove that the mint were not pinching the excess ;D

Interesting whichever.

Best wishes

Alan
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 02:30:11 PM by Manzikert »

Offline EWC

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Re: Ghorid, Mu`izz al-Din Muhammad b. Sam, 567- 602 A.H., AR dirham, (Ghazna)
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2014, 11:44:50 AM »
My opinion

Amusingly - this is exactly the sort of coin that I suspect is meant by “corn” in the 1211 AD letter I just referred to.  They were struck almost entirely randomly and traded by weight using scales.

Regarding the little bit of confusion – Many years back a top London auction house listed a similar bullion issue (actually a heavy gold piece of Yildiz) but wrongly attributed to North Africa.  And Grierson bought it, thinking it was the sort of coin English medieval writers were seeing when they mentioned “30 penny pieces” in manuscripts.  But of course, its not that likely Afghan coins of Yildiz would get to England in the early 13th century, so the idea was dropped when the coin was properly attributed.

Not a criticism of Grierson of course.  The interesting thinkers are always the ones that take risks IMO.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Ghorid, Mu`izz al-Din Muhammad b. Sam, 567- 602 A.H., AR dirham, (Ghazna)
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2014, 03:46:23 PM »
A slightly different opinion, based on what I have learned on this site about how people used coins in India but also on what little I know about the use of European medieval coins*. This may be a sign of a double standard: coins used by weight (as bullion) for big payments and by tally for small payments. This was clearly the case in India and there are good indications that the system was quite similar in Europe.

Peter

* How rarely did medieval merchants use coin?" by Prof. Peter Spufford, ISBN 978-9073882218
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.