IW countermark on fractional ecu of France

[redwine]

Silver
2.43g
22mm
I think the countermark is IW - it looks like a jewellers mark?
Any thoughts? Many thanks

[malj1]

It does look like that or perhaps a silver-makers mark.

[there is a list somewhere online] some French here

Remember too I was commonly used for J

[redwine]

Why do you think a silver or jewellers mark would be necessary?   
It's very puzzling?  Could it be a colonial mark?

[malj1]

It wouldn't be necessary. I was seeing it as a workman's freak, just a try out of the stamp in an idle moment.

I cant quite make out the mark, but think of a British hallmark, the first mark is often the makers mark and this IW would appear to be of a similar size used in that instance.

Its too tiny to be seen if the coin is only 22mm, so would not work as a colonial mark.

[malj1]

See hallmarks the sample at the head of the page has the makers mark last.

See the IW  here is this anything like it?

[redwine]

Thanks Mal. 
There are a few candidates here too
http://www.silvercollection.it/englishsilvermarksXI3.html

[constanius]

Looks to me like 'M F'   



or 'T W'  http://www.925-1000.com/dlLondon15.html#M    look at Thomas Wimbush's mark.

[redwine]

Aaaah! I shall have to get my microscope out. 

[redwine]

And I've actually got it to work

[andyg]

or 'T W'  http://www.925-1000.com/dlLondon15.html#M    look at Thomas Wimbush's mark.

I agree that it looks like TW - the top of the "T" is currently the bottom of the "I" in the scan.

[malj1]

Thomas Wimbush seems to fit the bill. With the mark first registered in 1845, it must have been used after this date.

How does that tie in with the approximate date of the fractional ecu?

[andyg]

How does that tie in with the approximate date of the fractional ecu?

The host coin is 18th century - so at least some 50 years earlier.

[malj1]

That is what we need, at least 50 years of wear to reach that condition by the time it was stamped.

[redwine]

Many thanks guys.    I see this as a test piece for an apprentice    I think he got an F.
Imagination, tion, tion......

Probably was a tenth of an ecu from Montpellier mint circa 1750??

[Figleaf]

Yes, the host coin is a 1/10th ecu 1740-1769 Montpellier. That makes Britain an unlikely place to end up.

I agree that the punch looks like a jewellers mark. In view of the mintmark, I would expect the jeweller to be French, possibly Italian or Spanish. Mind that it was placed on the head of the king. That means two things: the king was not held in high regard and the side with the French coat of arms was considered more important.

I can think of two scenarios. One is that this piece was part of a larger silver piece. Below is an example of a fashionable "coin cup". Most of the coins show the arms of a province, the coin in the bottom the federal (national) arms. This scenario appeals all the more because the mark of the mint would not have sufficed. At the very least, there should have been the essayer's mark and a mark indicating silver content. The other marks may have been on other parts of the larger piece. The wear may have been caused by excessive cleaning.

The other scenario is romantic and less likely: an emigrant, fleeing the terror in France and showing his royalist sympathies with a pin on a kokarde. Nice thought and it explains the wear, but not the lack of solder on the coin.

Peter