Author Topic: Cash Coin Problem: Viet Nam or China?  (Read 3887 times)

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Offline Rangnath

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Cash Coin Problem: Viet Nam or China?
« on: December 28, 2008, 05:13:28 AM »
My area of expertise is edible mushrooms in upstate New York, NOT Cash Coins.
I recieved two uni-face coins posted here.  I determined that one is Da Ding Tong Bao or even DAi Dinh Thong Bao; but is it from China or Viet Nam?  How can one tell the difference?  I tried to make a determination by searching the web, but I can see that this is beyond me. 
The second coin is  Tai Ping Sheng Bao. Again, the same problem appears.  Is it from Viet Nam or China?  The same legend, I believe, was used, but with a different historical significance.   I think. 
richie

translateltd

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Re: Cash Coin Problem: Viet Nam or China?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2008, 06:52:57 AM »
Looking at the fabric alone I would have said they were Song Dynasty Chinese, or at least more-or-less contemporary issues from peripheral states; the TAI-PING coins from China were 19th century (don't think there were any earlier ones, but will check for you later ...).  I don't think I've advanced the argument much with this but will get some textbooks out later on and comment again.

translateltd

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Re: Cash Coin Problem: Viet Nam or China?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2008, 07:48:22 AM »
OK, the first one matches a known Chinese type, Dading Tongbao, AD 1178, produced during the Jin Dynasty (more-or-less contemporary with Southern Song).  It also doesn't rule out the possibility of a Vietnamese coin with the same legend but just pronounced differently (presumably Dai dinh thong bo, as you suggest) - there's one from Annam produced AD 1369-1370, but the style of the characters nudges me toward China for yours.

The second one, Taiping Shengbao, matches a Taiping Rebellion type of 1851-1864, but I'm skeptical because of the fabric of your piece - it looks much older.  I can't find any Annamese types with this legend so will have to remain mystified for the moment.

I'm using Japanese catalogues that list cash coins popular with Japanese collectors, so very thorough on Chinese issues and with reasonable coverage of Korean and Annamese types, but I doubt that they would be exhaustive.

The other option that I've just thought of in typing this is that they could both be modern forgeries, artificially aged to give them a green patina - rarity doesn't enter into it when selecting targets for such operations!

Still not much further on, are we?  Vladimir Belyaev's site at http://www.zeno.ru/ might be another option to try - let me know what results you get if you do!

Offline Rangnath

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Re: Cash Coin Problem: Viet Nam or China?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2008, 06:24:50 PM »
I do not know what I am doing Martin. The two coins were given to me by a Vietnamese from Hanoi. He didn't say that they were from Viet Nam, but then, he didn't say that they were Chinese either.

 I came upon one web site called Coins and Banknotes of Vietnam and French Indochina ANNAM AND ITS MINOR CURRENCY.  The opening page is interesting. I tried locating my coin using this system and came up with the following:


Rebel [][][] Cam-giang Vuong. 1509.
Tired of suffering the tyranny of King [][][] OAI-MUC-DE, a general of fortune called [][] LE-XINH, who had distinguished himself in 1508 by driving back from Annam a Chinese savage tribe then invading its frontiers from Yunnan, raised the banner of rebellion in Cochinchina in 1509, putting forward his brother [] Tong, prince of [][] Cam-giang, who was proclaimed king under the name of [][] THAI-BINH. The war was carried on with great rapidity, and the rebels soon invaded Tunquin after defeating the royal troops in several engagements. King Oai-muc-de, who had detained in his palace the prince of Cam-giang, ordered him and two of his younger brothers to be murdered. General UINH, exasperated at the receipt of this news, started at once for the capital, and arrived there just as Oai-muc-de had committed suicide.

For the payment of the rebel troops the following coins were issued.


No. 164. - Obverse:     Giao-tri-thong-bao.
Reverse: plain.


No. 165. - Obverse:     Thai-binh-thong-bao.
Reverse: without rim. Coin of diminutive size.

No. 166. - Same as the last, but with the characters   Thanh-bao instead of Thong-bao.   (My coin looks like this, doesn't it?
Of course, it could be Chinese. I realize that. Anyway.)
There were two different kinds of metal employed in the manufacture of the two last-named coins, white and rod copper.

More later, I've got walk the dog. Literally. 
richie


« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 06:27:04 PM by Rangnath »

translateltd

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Re: Cash Coin Problem: Viet Nam or China?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2008, 07:01:31 PM »
Just based on its colour I'd be happier with a 16th century Thai binh thanh bo :-)


Offline Rangnath

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Re: Cash Coin Problem: Viet Nam or China?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2008, 08:15:51 PM »
The two coins have definitely been in someone's damp trunk far too long.

I located the other coin. At least, I located the Vietnamese coin with the same legend as my coin; too bad the Chinese characters don't paste properly below:


XII.
The  Ly Dynasty. - 1010-1225.
Another general of the palace, LY CONG-UN, proclaimed himself king, and was afterwards known by the name of [][] THAI-TO. At this time the kingdom of Annam became known by the name of [][] Giao-chi, given by the Chinese Emperors; and the capital was established in [][] Ha-noi. Thai-to found the necessary elements for the consolidation of the royal authority, and made good use of them, giving birth to the first of the three great dynasties which ruled Annam prior to the present century. During his reign regular taxation was established upon fisheries and agriculture, such taxes being paid in rice and cash. The civil administration and the army were also re-organized; and for the first time the king received solemn investiture from the Emperor of China, thus admitting the right of sovereignty which the Chinese Empire pretends to hold over Annam. It is from this time that the Chinese claimed tribute, and later on, to enforce those claims, their armies invaded and occupied the country.
Thai-to was succeeded in 1028 by his son [][] THAI-TONG. who during his reign of twenty-eight years had to fight, only against the rebels who rose in arms in the frontier provinces. In 1036, having restored peace on the frontiers of China, he received from the Emperor the title of [][][][] Nam-binh-vuong The most important of these rebellions was that under [][] Trii-cao who, defeated in 1050, revolted again in 1052, invaded the Chinese provinces of [][] Kuang-tung and [][] Kuang-si, and with the Annamese province of [][] Quang-nguyen founded the kingdom called [][] DAI-NAM, in which he was proclaimed king by his followers under the name of [][] NHON-HUE. In the early days of his reign success attended him, and he defeated the various Chinese armies sent against him; but finally he was beaten, and his kingdom disappeared with him in 1054.
During the reign of Thai-tong, Buddhism made great progress in Annam, the king ordering in 1031 the construc-tion of nearly one thousand monasteries.
In 1055 [][], THANH-TONG, son of Thai-tong, came to power, and his first act was to change the name of the king-dom to that of [][] Dai-viet, used during the DINH Dynasty. His reign was peaceful, and in 1072 he was succeeded by his son [][] NHON-TONG, notorious for his wars against the Chinese. The Emperor [][] CHlN-TSUNG of the Northern [] Sung Dynasty had decided to conquer Annam, and to that end he sent a numerous army, which, however, did not pass the [][] Quang-nguyen frontiers. The army was detained for several months on these frontiers, and suffered great loss in every engagement it had with the Annamese, till at length peace was signed, and the invaders returned to their own country.
[][] THAN-TONG, a nephew of the last king, occupied the throne in 1128, and reigned until 1139; the only notice taken of him in the Annals was that he was mad. He was succeeded at his death by his son [][] ANH-TONG, during whose reign the port of Hai-phong was opened to trade with Siam, the Malay Peninsula, and Burmah. In 1142 a bonze called [][] THAN-LOI raised a rebellion, and was proclaimed king under the name of [][] BINH-VUONG. He was, at first, successful, collected numerous forces, and went to besiege the capital; but, routed on the way to Hanoi, he sought refuge in the mountains of Tunquin, where he was made a prisoner, taken to the capital, and decapitated.
In 1176 [][] CAO-TONG, son of Anh-tong, came to power, and ten years afterwards he received his investiture from the Emperor of China, being called for the first time [][][] An-nam Vuong, or King of Annum. He was corrupt and addicted to vice, and was dethroned by a military rebellion in 1211. His son [][] HUE-TONG, supported by his father-in-law [][] TRAN-LY, succeeded to the throne. The kingdom was in a very disturbed state: the [] Ly Dynasty had already lost the prestige acquired by its first kings, and the fear of imaginary or real dangers which surrounded the life of the king made him lose his reason and his throne. He became mad and abdi-cated in 1225 in favour of his daughter [][] CHIEU-THANH. The [] TRAN family did not lose such a good opportunity to obtain the crown; one of its members [][] TRAN-CANH married the queen, and, on her abdicating in favour of her husband, the Ly family, the true founders of the Annamese kingdom, disappeared from power.

No. 8. - Obverse:     Dai-dinh-thong-bao.
Reverse: plain.

richie

translateltd

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Re: Cash Coin Problem: Viet Nam or China?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2008, 12:24:03 AM »
So the Dai Dinh reign title has been used twice in Vietnamese history by the looks of our respective research - pinning it down to one or the other will need some expert input at this point, I think!


Offline Rangnath

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Re: Cash Coin Problem: Viet Nam or China?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2008, 12:41:53 AM »
Thanks for your help Martin.  I guess I'll travel to Zeno with our problem.
Richie

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Cash Coin Problem: Viet Nam or China?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 09:39:23 AM »
Ragnath, these are both Vietnamese merchant cash, exactly comparable to private tokens.   Older western language references, notoriously Toda, wishfully make many of them out to be ancient rebel issues, which they aren't.   These are common ($1-$2) and come in a variety of diameters.    They were probably made between 1580 and 1660.   From what I have seen of their metal content they were made from copper mined in the northern mountains, and so probably cast in the Hanoi-Haiphong region.   Such pieces were documented by Europeans as having been made and widely circulated there at that time.   In that period there were no government issues, and regional trade coins came in this small size.   Circulating alongside them, valued higher, were full sized older Chinese cash and some Japanese.

I see where a current very exhaustive catalog of private Vietnamese cash (which I am trying to get hold of) assigns them to the south in the 1700's, for reasons unknown.   Some versions of these did continue to be made later.   Your top piece should be the older of the two.    Zeno does have a vast assortment of this group, many with very detailed metal analysis using x-ray fluorescence, done by Pavel Kartashov, my favorite Russian.

Of this particular group of private cash a total catalog exists, within 'Shima Sen Bunrui Senpu' by Teruo Hirose, 1987.    Scott S. should still have copies for sale.   There are hundreds of varieties, if sizes and rim differences are counted.   

And yes, Da Ding (Ta Ting to me) was used as a reign title both by China and Vietnam.  Hence many later copies.   Yours copies an earlier larger trade coin, which in turn maybe, possibly copied a tribute coin.