Author Topic: Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)  (Read 2232 times)

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Offline Quant.Geek

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Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)
« on: October 29, 2013, 05:58:11 PM »
Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)

Obv: 一 朱 銀
Rev: 定 常銀 是座


A gallery of my coins can been seen at FORVM Ancient Coins

Offline THCoins

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Re: Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2013, 07:15:41 PM »
Uhh, your coin is being eaten by a Giant tapeworm !  :o

Earnestly, i think this is a very intersting coin. But that holder if find an almost criminally terrible thing to do to it.

Offline Quant.Geek

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Re: Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2013, 08:10:06 PM »
Thanks Anthony!   Quite difficult to fit a rectangular peg in a round hole.  These PCGS holders aren't ideal for these types of coins unfortunately.  Problematic for the other coins I am about to post as well...
A gallery of my coins can been seen at FORVM Ancient Coins

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2013, 10:32:37 PM »
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

cackle cackle cackle
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline ChrisHagen

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Re: Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2013, 12:55:15 AM »
I love these Shu! Is it silver, or an alloy of silver and gold? When I look at pictures of these, they sometimes seem to be made from a kind of a modern electrum!

What does the inscription mean?

Google Translates gives:

"One silver Shu // Silver is the seat of unsteady"

The obverse seems fine, but I doubt the reverse :D

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2013, 10:05:04 AM »
The reverse is right column 銀座 Ginza (Silver Mint), left column 常是 Joze, name of the mint official, with the single punched character 定, 'jo', guaranteed above.

Alan

Offline pingu

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Re: Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2013, 10:14:55 AM »
Hello,

Rev.:
Counterstamp: Tei = checked weight
Ginza = Place of the production - state silvermint
Joze= I interpret it in such a way: Short form for Dakokujotze - Surname of the family which was responsible for the 1st production order of these coins.

The metal is 880 silver, 120 Pb,Cu,Sn, Sb,Ni and Zn in varying proportions.
99 different editions are known -  all with differences in the characters.

Greetings from Germany
pingu

Offline pingu

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Re: Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2013, 10:20:31 AM »
@ Manzikert:

常是 Joze, name of the mint official
this is definitely wrong!

Greetings
pingu

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2013, 11:05:37 AM »
Hi pingu

As far as I know I got this info from Hartill's 'Early Japanese Coins', but I can't check that until Friday.

The meaning of the top character might be open to interpretation, your 'checked weight' and Hartill's(?) 'guaranteed [weight?]' are pretty similar in intention, but my knowledge of Japanese is at about the 'domo dozo arigato' level so I've no idea of the reason for the different transcriptions 'jo' and 'tei'.

You say in the first post that:

"Joze= I interpret it in such a way: Short form for Dakokujotze - Surname of the family which was responsible for the 1st production order of these coins."

and then in the second post you say:

"常是 Joze, name of the mint official
this is definitely wrong!"

Is it the transcription that is wrong, or that the name is not a current official of the mint but the official in charge of the mint at the time these were authorized?

Anyway, I'm afraid I'm going away for a couple of days, and look forward to learning more when I get back on Friday :)

Best wishes

Alan




Offline pingu

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Re: Imperial Japan: Emperor Meiji (1868-1869) One Shu (KM#C-12a)
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2013, 02:32:54 PM »
Hi Alan,

excuse please, my English is not especially good. I work with different translation programmes.
I had this as a translation the Mint Joze was called and this would be wrong (Name for the Mint= Joze)....

Joze = Coin official can absolutely be the right name.
Nevertheless, Joze is not proved unambiguously as a coin official in Japan.
With Joze the meaning is not exactly cleared.
Is proved: A family Joze was an owner / tenant? the mint at the time of the production of the 1st pieces.

Some years ago I have asked myself what stands exact on the coins. Therefore, I have asked Japanese traders and collectors for help. I use a Japanese linguistic forum also for my searches.
My information is a result of this search.

The meaning of Tei is protected. The stamp was raised to the control of the pieces and was valid as a guarantee for silver salary and weight.
However, the statement runs out on a similar result.

Best wishes
pingu