Author Topic: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"  (Read 6795 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline <k>

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23 298
Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« on: November 21, 2011, 02:21:42 AM »
Did I miss any Empire or Commonwealth threepences of the 20th century (that is, not from the UK)? Also, can you think of any other threepences of the 19th century and earlier, apart from the Kruger one, that are not from Britain, England, Scotland or Ireland, but are from parts of the British Empire or from other parts of the world?



Parent topic: British Empire & C/W: a parade of pre-decimal denominations
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 11:02:51 PM by <k> »
Visit the website of The Royal Mint Museum.

See: The Royal Mint Museum.

translateltd

  • Guest
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2011, 03:52:39 AM »
I get four, not including a couple of token issues.

I was going back a bit further than the 19th century:

Sommer Islands (Bermuda), c. 1616
New England "NE" 3d (unique issue) 1652
- Willow tree 3d 1653-60
- Oak tree 3d 1660-67
- Pine tree 3d 1667-82

There are also Australian silver 3d token issues from the 19th century.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 07:25:11 PM by <k> »

Offline villa66

  • Meritorious Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 718
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2011, 08:38:34 PM »
You've got Bermuda and three New England issues. I had remembered Bermuda and New England for two "entities" (they're sort of de rigueur for kids with a Redbook), and had suspected Maryland for a third, but it turns out that was not the case (penny, groat, sixpence and shilling only).

About whether these are "coins" as coffeetime mentions, I would argue that the New England (and Maryland) issues certainly are. (I always did enjoy the idea of the CYA date machinations with the New England pieces.)

Otherwise I think coffeetime has the 19th and 20th century 3d issues pretty well boxed up, but I say this without doing any kind of exhaustive, or even merely systematic, search. If I do happen across another I'll be sure to mention it.

 :) v.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 07:25:58 PM by <k> »

Offline stelios

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2011, 07:39:08 PM »
Do these count?

Offline <k>

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23 298
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2011, 07:42:27 PM »
These are 3 piastres and 3 mils. There were 1000 mils to the pound and 9 piastres to the shilling. So, no, they don't count, but they are nice coins. I particularly like the 1955 set.

Have a look at some charming unissued designs for Cyprus:

Mystery coin designs - guess which country!
Visit the website of The Royal Mint Museum.

See: The Royal Mint Museum.

Offline <k>

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23 298
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2011, 12:43:40 AM »
Some anomalies, then: in Cyprus, 9 piastres were equal to a shilling. From whom did they take the tradition of piastres?

And in East Africa, fifty cents made a shilling. Does anyone know the history of this? Nowadays, 100 cents make a shilling in Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda - the successors to East Africa. Does that mean one Kenyan shilling was equal to two East African shillings, etc? Or did Kenya halve the value of its cents?
Visit the website of The Royal Mint Museum.

See: The Royal Mint Museum.

Offline malj1

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7 565
  • "illegitimi non carborundum"
    • Mals Machine Tokens
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2011, 01:19:59 AM »


Admittedly this is not a coin, but did you know the Japanese issued shillings too? Who knows in which present-day territories this note was issued?

The serial OC refers to Oceania , the notes being issued in 1942 for British New Guinea, the Solomon and Gilbert Islands and other small island outposts. Often said used or for Australia but this is incorrect.

See the Australian War Memorial site at http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/RELC01155

Code letters OA also known.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 05:09:02 AM by malj1 »
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline <k>

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23 298
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2011, 01:28:56 AM »
The serial OC refers to Oceania , the notes being issued in 1942 for British New Guinea, the Solomon and Gilbert Islands and other small island outposts. Often said used or for Australia but this is incorrect.

No, Australia was certainly never occupied by the Japanese. The Gilbert Islands are now Kiribati.
Visit the website of The Royal Mint Museum.

See: The Royal Mint Museum.

translateltd

  • Guest
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2011, 08:23:18 AM »
No, Australia was certainly never occupied by the Japanese. The Gilbert Islands are now Kiribati.

You get people claiming they were intended for use in NZ too, though "intended" might be the key word - had NZ and Australia ever been occupied, the "OC" series notes may well have been pressed into service in those countries too.

Regarding Kiribati - the spelling doesn't make it obvious, but it's just a transliteration of "Gilbert(s)" into Gilbertese spelling.  -ti- is pronounced rather like -s-, which is a handy clue.  It also explains the title of its elected head of state, the Beretitenti :-)



translateltd

  • Guest
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2011, 08:25:33 AM »
Some anomalies, then: in Cyprus, 9 piastres were equal to a shilling. From whom did they take the tradition of piastres?

And in East Africa, fifty cents made a shilling. Does anyone know the history of this? Nowadays, 100 cents make a shilling in Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda - the successors to East Africa. Does that mean one Kenyan shilling was equal to two East African shillings, etc? Or did Kenya halve the value of its cents?

Cyprus - I would hazard a link with the Turkish piastre, which was probably current prior to the 1870s.

East Africa - 50c made a shilling only briefly (1920-21 from memory); after that it was 100c, as elsewhere.  I think the point was that the higher denomination was originally the "florin", so half a florin was naturally only 50c.


Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32 345
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2011, 12:38:18 PM »
Notice how both coins portray a tied wreath.

Irrelevant coincidence. The British piece was designed in London, the coin of the Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek (not Transvaal) in Berlin. The oak wreath on the latter figures on the contemporary 50 pfennig and 1 Mark. In fact, Kruger considered the British as his enemy (rightly so, as history proved) and thought Germany was a natural counterweight to the British.

So why use £sd? No choice. It already was the established currency of the region (with the exception of Madagascar and some neighbouring fly-specks.) You might as well ask why the Straits Settlements coins used Spanish standards.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32 345
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2011, 12:46:51 PM »
In Cyprus, 9 piastres were equal to a shilling. From whom did they take the tradition of piastres?

As Martin guessed correctly, the Turks. The conversion from piastre to £sd is a convoluted story told here.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline <k>

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23 298
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2011, 02:26:52 PM »
Irrelevant coincidence. The British piece was designed in London, the coin of the Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek (not Transvaal) in Berlin.

Peter

Wikipedia tells me that the Transvaal Republic is the informal name of Kruger's South African Republic. I preferred it because I thought the official name might be confusing to some. Of course, "Transvaal Republic" may not be a name used on the Continent or outside the English-speaking world - I don't know.
Visit the website of The Royal Mint Museum.

See: The Royal Mint Museum.

Offline malj1

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7 565
  • "illegitimi non carborundum"
    • Mals Machine Tokens
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2011, 08:41:06 PM »
East Africa - 50c made a shilling only briefly (1920-21 from memory); after that it was 100c, as elsewhere.  I think the point was that the higher denomination was originally the "florin", so half a florin was naturally only 50c.



Here is the East Africa token money 1/-
East Africa Command came into being on 15th September 1941  the new command comprised Ethiopia, Eritrea (for a short time only), Italian Somaliland, British Somaliland, Kenya, Zanzibar, Tanganyika, Uganda, Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

translateltd

  • Guest
Re: Comments on "British Empire & C/W: pre-decimal denominations"
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2011, 02:08:48 AM »

The reverses of Australia's pre-decimal coins were re-designed in 1938 - though the sixpence remained the same. In one respect, however, the reverse design of the threepence is the odd-man-out of the whole set. Can you see why?

The number of design elements (three wheat stalks) representing the number of the denomination?