Author Topic: mysterious counterstamp  (Read 4081 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline a3v1

  • Meritorious Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
mysterious counterstamp
« on: October 19, 2008, 11:08:54 PM »
A French demi ecu of Louis XV dated 1727 and minted in Strassbourg (mintmark BB) shows a counterstamp of (to me) unknown origin.
The counterstamp includes an arm holding a sword and three stars.
Suggestions, anyone?
Regards,
a3v1
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 10:20:25 PM by coffeetime »
Over half a century of experience as a coin collector.
-------------
Money is like body fat: If there's too much of it, it always is in the wrong places.

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29 618
Re: mysterious counterstamp
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2008, 12:04:59 AM »
Mysterious to say the least. A coat of arms that looks quite like it, yet is not the same is that of the cathedral chapter of Metz. The difference is that instead of three stars, the arms has two balls. A fair number of other towns in the department of the Moselle use the same motif of the arm with sword, with three devices, but I haven't found one that is exactly the same. My search was confined to French arms, though and the arms may be German.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline natko

  • Meritorious Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 507
  • Split, Croatia
Re: mysterious counterstamp
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2012, 07:36:31 PM »
Isn't that really the upper left quarter of Moselle arms - Metz? It has "stars" and the arm with sword as the main motif.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Blason_d%C3%A9partement_fr_Moselle.svg



The original coat of arms on countermark overwhelmingly reminds me of Vukcic-Hrvatinic family arms, nobles of XIV ct onwards, which were most famous rulers of Bosnia along with Kotromanic family. At the same time coat of arms with lilies was also used, and today I mostly see that one as official, while lilies are also today symbol of Bosnia (but unfortunately banned after Bosnian war, like all other symbols that could ignite any fires)

Later the arms was used in Primorje (littoral region, heavy pic so will put only link)
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6732/primorjevb4.jpg

And much later in Austro-Hungarian flag of Bosnian territory


I thought so far it's quite unique in design, but really surprises me to see another connection with French symbols, first the lilies of course, usually 3 (sometimes 5) of them on both sides. I wonder how those parallels were made... probably after Charlemagne's conquests, when those were merely neighboring territories.

akona20

  • Guest
Re: mysterious counterstamp
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2012, 01:33:02 AM »
It would say it is the crest of Latvia.

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29 618
Re: mysterious counterstamp
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 10:26:05 AM »
No resemblance, unfortunately. I checked local arms also. The closest I got was Valka, a town in Latvia. However, note the cloud (making the armoured arm divine) and 5-pointed, not 6-pointed stars.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

akona20

  • Guest
Re: mysterious counterstamp
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 10:31:58 AM »
"an arm holding a sword and the three stars of Latvia." this is the standard decoration on many medals from Latvia just just a small village.

I rather remember it from a Consular function many years ago in Riga. It rather struck me then. As a counterstamp often close enough was good enough.

Offline redwine

  • liaison officer
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3 372
  • Too old to care.
Re: mysterious counterstamp
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2012, 03:59:48 PM »
Our French friends have been looking into this and they feel it unlikely that it is a French countermark.
However, they did come up with one image that looks rather compelling aside from the fact that it has five pointed stars.
http://emblemes.free.fr/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1745:armoiries-de-granville&catid=114:granville&Itemid=236

More details in French here

http://www.numismatique.com/forum/identifications/contremarque-sur-demi-ecu-1727-t55595.html
Always willing to trade.  See my profile for areas of interest.

Offline redwine

  • liaison officer
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3 372
  • Too old to care.
Re: mysterious counterstamp
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2012, 04:15:11 PM »
Always willing to trade.  See my profile for areas of interest.

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29 618
Re: mysterious counterstamp
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2016, 01:09:19 PM »
Our French friends have come up with what looks like a very good solution: a counterpunch from Karl Joseph Freiherr von Riccabona (1826-1839), bishop of Passau, whose arms include the armed arm and stars. Strasbourg and Passau were linked by the ecclesiastical office occupied by Leopold V of Habsburg, Austrian Tyrol, who was bishop of the two cities, Archduke of Further Austria (Vorlände or Vorderösterreich) and Duke of Tyrol, between 1619 and early 1625 during the 30 Years War. The coins were counter-marked because they were considered to be of a good silver alloy, compared with the silver content of coins from the Austrian economic sphere of Vorlände between Alsace and Tirol.

http://www.numismatique.com/forum/topic/9760-contremarque-sur-demi-écu-1727-bb/#comment-108915 (link in French)

The same counterstamp has been observed on a Russian ruble dated 1736. (Hirsch Nachfolger Auction 27th May 2003, Lot-Nr. 1813)

References:
http://www.wikiwand.com/de/Karl_Joseph_von_Riccabona (link in German) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_V,_Archduke_of_Austria
http://www.emuenzen.de/forum/threads/1-2-ecu-1727-bb-mit-unbekanntem-gegenstempel.51037/ (link in German)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Afrasi

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2 498
  • To do is to doo be dooh ...
Re: mysterious counterstamp
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2016, 03:35:14 PM »
The pictures of the countermark shown by a3v1 and razorback are identically.  :o  ;D

Offline chrisild

  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8 553
  • NW · DE · EU
Re: mysterious counterstamp
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2016, 06:45:16 PM »
Hehe, you're right. Judging from the dates of the two initial posts, I assume that the question came up in that German forum, and a week later, a3v1 tried to help out by posting it here too ...

Christian