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Yugoslavia, 1965, medal on the Zagreb numismatic symposium.

Started by Arminius, April 17, 2013, 08:34:42 PM

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Arminius

Hello my dear friends of struck metal disks,

i need some experts on old Balkan coins who can satisfy my curiosity and show me some hints.
Which old coin (or seal?) is depicted on this modern medal:



Yugoslavia, Zagreb in Croatia, medal on the Zagreb Numismatic Society symposium, 1965 AD.,
Medal (27 mm / 9,00 g), bronze, axes medal alignment ↑↑ (0°), plain edge,
Obv.: I NUMIZMATIČKI SIMPOZIJ / ZAGREB 1965 // SECVIIDVCI - DVX PAVL / BAIIHLAD , (" I numismatic symposium / Zagreb 1965") , modern legend around depiction of an old coin.
Rev.: NUMIZMATIČKO DRUŠTVO / MUZEJSKI / DOCUMENTACIONI CENTAR / RADIONICE ŠPU ZAGREB , ( " Numismatic Society / museum / Documentation Center / workshops SPU Zagreb" ) , four lines text.

Thanks

:)

natko

I'm sorry I didn't see this before. The answer seems quite easy - it's a Bosnian coin made alike to these Venetian grossi, but it can be read Ban Mlad(en) in vertical line with Dux Paul on the right which corresponds to joint reign of Duces Paul Šubić and his son Mladen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mladen_II_%C5%A0ubi%C4%87_of_Bribir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_I_%C5%A0ubi%C4%87_of_Bribir

Although extremely rare there is even one similar (not same) offered recently, and from all auctions I was following and searching this year I missed this one! Damn.
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=1050268

natko

Actually, that one was withdrawn from the auction for further authenticity analysis, so I guess if not fake, it will be offered next time.

Arminius


Randomiser

Quote from: natko on August 28, 2013, 05:42:12 PM
I'm sorry I didn't see this before. The answer seems quite easy - it's a Bosnian coin made alike to these Venetian grossi, but it can be read Ban Mlad(en) in vertical line with Dux Paul on the right which corresponds to joint reign of Duces Paul Šubić and his son Mladen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mladen_II_%C5%A0ubi%C4%87_of_Bribir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_I_%C5%A0ubi%C4%87_of_Bribir

Although extremely rare there is even one similar (not same) offered recently, and from all auctions I was following and searching this year I missed this one! Damn.
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=1050268

I must say that I have found this amazing. Not only that father's and son's names appear on the coins together as if they were co-rulers, but supposed father's name and title are in Latin language, while his son's name and tittle are in Serbian. It is also funny that the name Mladen goes down the middle of one of the coins while it is along the edge on another.  ::)


ChrisHagen

Quote from: Randomiser on September 04, 2013, 11:13:21 AM
I must say that I have found this amazing. Not only that father's and son's names appear on the coins together as if they were co-rulers, but supposed father's name and title are in Latin language, while his son's name and tittle are in Serbian. It is also funny that the name Mladen goes down the middle of one of the coins while it is along the edge on another.  ::)
That is a very interesting observation, I hadn't thought about that!

natko

Quote from: Randomiser on September 04, 2013, 11:13:21 AM
I must say that I have found this amazing. Not only that father's and son's names appear on the coins together as if they were co-rulers, but supposed father's name and title are in Latin language, while his son's name and tittle are in Serbian. It is also funny that the name Mladen goes down the middle of one of the coins while it is along the edge on another.  ::)

True, it's a very interesting case. This other auction piece I posted is the same case, Paul is written in the middle with his brother (Mladen the first, whose son had the same name) in Latin around. Latin was exclusive language, but I guess middle was written in own language so you can easily distinguish them from Venetian grossi which were of course the lead design. Later grossi have varieties with. About the language, well, Subices were already the renowned Croatian family, some of which will later have huge roles in Habsburg-Ottoman wars. Language was of course different than anything today, rather romanized as we see on later coins, but belonging to this dialect which is today rapidly extincting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakavian_dialect. If you take a look at the map which area Kingdom of Bosnia included it's of course clear why. Later royal families did mix with Serbian nobles, gaining some towns as Kotor/Cattaro, but language on coins was not Serbian as well. Actually Croatian and Serbian was quite different until idea of uniting south slavic people, which resulted in grammar reforms and unite dictionaries in mid XIX century and especially after artificial merge as Serbo-Croatian standardized language. Now difference is not so big which is the reason why some foreign sources, take wiki for instance, still insist of using this non-existing term. It's easier not to bother :)

Anyhow I incline to accept terms in newest books of Bosnian authors which call the language Bosnian. It seems somehow more fair than saying it's Croatian, since these were indeed two different kingdoms in the time.