Author Topic: China Ching Dynasty coin?  (Read 3375 times)

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Offline Globetrotter

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China Ching Dynasty coin?
« on: January 21, 2013, 06:52:11 PM »
HI,

now I have another Chinese coin, where I'm not sure if I have found the proper identification!

I think it is from the Ching dynasty under emperor Kao Tsung (CH'IEN-LUNG). I have two others, both Shjoeth 1466, but they are larger, 24.16 mm. On the obverse this coin resembles the two others, but the reverse is quite different. I have seen all the coins on the following site, but cannot identify mine: http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/china/china8.htm#images of titles , which is fantastic site to identify Chinese coins, but ....

weight 2.89 grs
diameter 23.05 mm
thickness 1.04 mm

Can anybody help further?

Thanks in advance
Ole Sjoelund
Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

Offline THCoins

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Re: China Ching Dynasty coin?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 07:05:54 PM »
Look again ? http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/china/china8.htm

For Emperor KAO TSUNG, reign title: CH'IEN-LUNG, AD 1736-1795 seems to match.

(But at first glance i would not have much confidence in the authenticity of your coin. Lots of tourist copies made)

Offline bart

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Re: China Ching Dynasty coin?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 07:15:34 PM »
The coin you show is indeed Chienlung and also Boo Yuwan, as are your other 2 coins.

Krause lists your 2 other coins as KM#390 and the coin you show (with different reverse) as KM#391

Bart

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: China Ching Dynasty coin?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 10:45:13 PM »
Thanks to Bart and THCoins for the help regarding my coins...

I think, I have km#390 for both of them, because the km391 is a 'commemorative' coin where the bottom line of the 18:00 character is with an upwards bend upwards on both sides. The km390 just has a flat line (like my coins).

What still bothers me is the quite big difference in the measures for the same coin, ie km391, Schjoeth 1466, as shown in my attached documentation.

Thanks again for the help and the speed of it, incredible!

Ole Sjoelund

Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

Offline bgriff99

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Re: China Ching Dynasty coin?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2014, 05:34:08 AM »
Globetrotter, referring to your post with two scans, the first coin is from 1752 give or take a year.   They were about to be downsized at that point.   Your coin has a full broad rim, which is good.   Most pieces of that period have had them clipped.  Or more correctly turned, as on a lathe.    The weight standard was 1.2 mace, which your coin is right at.   On average they were a bit less.  The rim even looks a bit extra broad, without getting out my stuff to compare, but it's highly unlikely to be a sample cash.   Palace cash were only made at the Board of Revenue.   

Your second coin is from about 1776 when the diameters were smaller.   The wear on the coin has made its weight lower than originally.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: China Ching Dynasty coin?
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2014, 11:01:41 AM »
You make the commonest coins interesting. I'd never thought you could pin a date on them.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: China Ching Dynasty coin?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2014, 09:23:54 PM »
Hi bgriff99,

thanks a lot for those extra informations. From where do you have those ++++'s, which I haven't found anywhere?

Ole
Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

Offline bgriff99

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Re: China Ching Dynasty coin?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2014, 02:34:46 AM »
The extra information is a combination of David Hartill's work, summarized in his magnum opus 'Qing Cash' published in 2003, and my own.    I made extensions of Burger's Ching date charts (which go up to 1735) out to 1821 for the Beijing mints, and for Chekiang through 1795.   Those were published in periodicals around 1987-89.   Hartill's dating is by type rather than year by year, which he is somewhat disdainful of.   Our orders and submint attributions are the same for Beijing (except I have a bit of mistake at the end of Chia-ching), but completely different for Chekiang.    Our date calibrations diverge a little on the central mints in late-reign.   At year 40 we are just one year apart.

We used separate methodologies to assign dates (David simply used my order and submint division).  Mine counts mold varieties, Burger's system, which assumes a visible change each year.   David's uses known production volumes statistically compared to quantities found in bulk lots.   Both systems have inherent flaws.   

Early larger coins in a 60 year reign are going to be more melted down than later smaller ones.   There is a stretch of Chien-lung from year 6 to 17 where they had excessively wide rims.   The majority of them have been clipped, so I assume many more were also melted outright.   By year 20 they had become small and below regulation weight.   Also a lot of the extant later smaller pieces are virtually non-detectable recasts using genuine pieces as mother cash.   The records also show casting targets, not actual tallies.   In the last two years of Chien-lung an abdication was already planned, so the cash design was made recognizably commemorative, but also less in quantity.   

A system of just counting mold varieties adds extra years when a design was changed in mid-year (which is my year 4 for example) or a design was carried over longer than one year (almost certainly my year 21).   David found calibration points at year 3, 4 (alloy change) and a lot of new mints coming online around year 12.   There is a Sinkiang design change that may link to year 24.   Without knowing those things my system had made not more than 1 year of mistake against them.   But after that there is no more calibration.   

Since my chart is easy to use, I refer to it.   When changes are very miniscule I represented two or even 3 years with one entry.   Likewise I refer to Burger's charts except where we know they are wrong.   Thus (for example) Hartill's coin 21.18, Yongzheng Type A Shanxi, is to Burger users Yung-cheng Shansi year 5 (1727).    It is rarity 1, meaning Burger found one specimen total.  It is recorded the mint was ordered to open in 1729, but Burger decides from the style of that one coin it must have opened two years earlier.   Hartill does not have the coin, using Burger's rubbing slightly and improperly cleaned up.    I do have the coin, but think they copied a common existing BoR cash in 1729 before seeing the new design, which was changed in the start of that year at Beijing.   The coin actually copies year 3 or 4.   It became the spring casting season design.   The most common Shansi type by far is the regular 1730 style.   They cast using scrap metal, and simply used it all up in two years.    Hartill does not go along with Burger either and also makes his year 5 into early year 7.    So whether Burger or Hartill we still know what the coin is.   At that point mother cash were recognizably changed twice per year.

For Yunnan in Yung-cheng neither of them got it right.   Burger shows more coins, in good date order, but badly scrambled mint attribution, and completely missed some very interesting things from the first three years.   Hartill semi-fixed the attributions.    He shows no Tali at all.

I don't know if copies of Burger's 'Ching Cash until 1735' can still be had.   I recommend it despite the mistakes.   It was published in 1976.   You can try Scott Semans.   Qing Cash runs I think $100 and is available.    My write-ups are in paste-up form, on large sized paper, but if copy centers still have that paper size, I can print up a copy.    I used to do that at work.   I already tried getting one page posted here, but couldn't get the file size down enough.   Two coin shops, one in Singapore, one in England used to carry copies.   

Offline Figleaf

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Re: China Ching Dynasty coin?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2014, 01:43:45 PM »
We have a bookshelf, bgriff. Izotz and I would be happy to help you make your work widely and easily available in a coherent format. I think it's worth it.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline bgriff99

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Re: China Ching Dynasty coin?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2014, 11:22:56 PM »
Thanks Peter, I took a look at the bookshelf.   I didn't know Moquette had a book, but it looks to be only about VOC coins, not cash, of which he had a personal collection from Java and environs when he was at Batavia.    I use Scholten, but don't collect the coins.   

I have a more recent project in booklet form about a type of trade cash manufactured at Amoy in the period 1570-1640 for trade with Banten and other places.    Interestingly they are identified in Millies, discussed at length, but because he didn't put them in his plates, nobody reads that French text, and the coins have been attributed to Vietnam all along.   It gets quite entangled in VOC activities, regarding which if it hadn't there would be nothing recorded about them.    Some people reading my article won't let go that they are Vietnamese despite the most unassailable evidence.   The coins are not even found there.   This hasn't been published.   It's just been passed out to a few people, including Chinasmith.   

I don't have capacity to make PDF files on my computer.    In any case the size of the first group of articles is on paper longer than the bed of a scanner, or anyway a regular home use one.    Most is on US "legal paper" 8.5 x 14 inches, and part is on A4 for Europe.    The Amoy pitis one is on 8.5 x 11 inch US office paper.   At least the text parts of that are on computer, not typescript.   But all the rubbings are pasted up.

Let me know the requirements at your end.   Thanks.

Bruce

Offline Figleaf

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Re: China Ching Dynasty coin?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2014, 12:21:16 PM »
Scholten is to a large degree based on Moquette (he figures in many footnotes) and the collection of the Bataviaasch Genootschap. He was a prolific, but not very careful collector. One contemporary reports how he was surrounded by buckets he used for sorting common coins. He would casually throw coins in without looking at the bucket while talking to the visitor. :)

I'll ask izotz to contact you. Basically, it's just a question of getting the papers into a coherent file. I am sure he can help you with pdf files also. On my Mac, it's ridiculously ease and you don't need extra software, so I suppose on a PC it can't be more difficult than looking for the stop command in the start menu :D

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline izotz

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Re: China Ching Dynasty coin?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2014, 01:15:57 PM »
Private message sent. As I told you, I can assist you to make whatever material you think it is interesting available on the bookshelf. Typically, anybody can send them to my E-mail that I can provide by PM.

I can convert them to different formats, group them in a file, or whatever you'd like to do.
If they are still in paper, well, I'm afraid I can't scan them to you. Try to keep your files below 15Mb before sending them. If they turn out to be much bigger, we will find a workaround for it.