Austro-Bavarian Monetary convention: A question

[Austrokiwi]

Hi

I understand this convetion set monetary values however I have found a google search somewhat lacking in information. Would some kind person be able to provide a summary of what the convention was about.

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See this thread for background information.

The time leading up to the reign of Maria Theresa was punctuated with wars, against the Ottoman empire 1663-1664, 1683-1699, 1714-1718, 1736-1739), France (1688-1697), Sweden (1701-1714), Poland (1733-1735) as well as the all-important war of the Spanish succession (1701-1714), where the House of Habsburg lost Spain to the house of Bourbon. When Maria Theresa inherited, the succession was immediately challenged by Bavaria and Prussia under Frederick the great, leading to the war of the Austrian succession (1740-1748). The Archduchy came on the verge of collapse, but was saved, to a significant extent by the Hungarians rallying to the cause of the Habsburgs. Maria Theresa's Austria was financially exhausted and politically weakened, but so was Bavaria.

The Bavarian house of Wittelsbach was for centuries the main power against the house of Habsburg. Habsburg could claim the job of emperor of the holy Roman empire and Wittelsbach couldn't, but Habsburg needed Wittelsbach's votes to get elected. Wittelsbach claimed a vote as elector of Bavaria, a second vote because their second son traditionally became archbishop of Cologne and the vicariat (vice-emperorship) through the Pfalz. The ensuing equilibrium can also be seen in the Southern Netherlands, where Habsburg possessed the duchy of Brabant and the counties of Flanders and Hainaut/Henegouwen, while Wittelsbach held Luik/Liège through Cologne. The war of the Austrian succession changed this relationship radically. Frederick the great had shown conclusively that Prussia was a rising protestant star that was a credible threat to both. The result was a catholic alliance of Austria and Bavaria with French support against protestant Prussia with English and Dutch support (the diplomatic revolution)

Even in peace, Prussia was a growing threat. Frederick had bought a financial advisor away from Brunswick, Finanzrat Johann Philipp Graumann. He introduced a new standard for coins in 1750, called the Graumannscher Fuß. It called for Reichsthalers of 1/14th mark of Cologne (a weight of 233.856 grams, so that a Reichsthaler was exactly 16.704 grams), divided in 24 Gute Groschen (36 Mariengroschen) of 12 pfennige each. Note that the coin was called Reichsthaler, but was in fact a Prussian coin. Frederick's ambition shows! However, the North of Germany was slow to follow the Prussian lead. Even in Prussia, it was generally accepted only after the Seven years' war (1756-1763) and it could be "exported" only after 1821. This gave Austria and Bavaria some breathing space.

Exhausted by successive wars, Austria in fact devalued its Reichsthaler from 1/9th of a Cologne mark (25.984 grams - the standard of the Reichsmünzordnung of 1566) to 1/10th of a Cologne mark (23.386 grams). Spurred by the Prussian threat, Bavaria agreed to issue coins on the same standard by a convention of September 1753. The principal coin of this standard, the Konventionsthaler was divided in 24 Groschen of 10 Pfennig each, with 2 Heller in a Pfennig (1 Konventionsthaler = 24 Groschen = 240 pfennig = 480 Heller).

The old coins were withdrawn, so they could be used for minting new ones. Therefore (both in North and South Germany) the new coins got a weight indication, so that Mint staff could quickly sort old coins for re-melting from new coins, to be re-issued. In the South, the indication of weight usually took the form of an X. This is not meant as a decoration or a letter, but as the Roman numeral 10, referring to the weight of 1/10th of a fine Cologne mark of silver (in German: X. eine feine Mark).

The Konventions standard was succeeded by the customs union of 1838 and the Vienna treaty of 1857, which created the Vereinsthaler. However, Austria reserved the right to continue striking Konventionsthaler for export. This clause was used to continue striking the MT thaler for centuries after its standard had become obsolete and it explains the X in the legend of MT Tthalers.

Peter

[Austrokiwi]

Thanks Peter

As you may have guessed my question was in relation to MTTs. I knew the saltire was in relation to the convention but not what the convention was about

[translateltd]

The only problem I have with this explanation is that MT Thalers are rather heavier than 23.386g - see the recent thread on the 1777 Burgau thaler (MT predecessor), for example.  How can this be explained?

[Austrokiwi]

I gained the impression that  Peter meant an exception was made in the convention to allow the continued minting of MTTs at the 28.06 gram weight.  The saltire was added to show that it was an approved coin under the convention.  Which is different to what I guessed: that the convention set the MTTs at that level.

The MTT was a huge money spinner for the Hapsburgs,  when MTs husband died a heavier veil was included on her Thalers ( MT set the example Victoria was to follow), following requests from the Ottomans the heavy veil was replaced with a lighter version.  Given that the Levant relied on the "unchangeable" state of the MTT ( even at that pre-restrike period) any convention to be successfully financially would have to make an exception for the MTT

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The MT Thaler was struck according to the provisions of the Münzkonvention. The weights indicated in my previous post are all expressed in fine silver. I could have made that clearer. Sorry. The MT Thaler's fineness was 14 Lot and 4 Grän, which corresponds to 833.33 pro mille, so a weight of 23,38556 fine corresponds to a raw weight of 28,0644 grams.

BTW, it's not a saltire (a heraldic device) but a Roman numeral.

Peter

[Austrokiwi]

Not a saltire???

Peter I would love t know your source for that info.   M Broome in  the 1972 paper: The 1780 re-strike talers of Maria Theresa Figure 2 page 234 refers to the X as a Saltire. In the text she refers to the cross as being a saltire or Burgundian cross ( and she locates it immediately after the date).  Clara Semple ( for some reason I have called her Anne in previous posts)  on page 43 of   her book A silver Legend the story of the Maria Theresa Thaler( 2005)  refers to it as a saltire or St andrews Cross.

Hafner in his Lexicon of the Maria Theresien Thaler  just calls it a cross in English and German(Kreuz). And  Hafner seems to just be following the earlier work of Franz Leopold ( Der Maria Theresien taler 1780 1976 who refers just to "Kreuz".  Your numerical description is new to me.  I would love a reference as every time I dig deeper I find more mysteries. 

[Austrokiwi]

Heres a low  grade scan of the table from Broome

[Austrokiwi]

Opps sorry didn't know that scan was going to end up so horrifically large :

I checked on Wikipedia.........now I don't count that as an authority but this part of the christian use of a Saltire  especially in relation to Coinage does seem to match:

Christian symbol

The saltire appears on vexilla that are represented consistently on coinage of Christian emperors of Rome, from the fourth century. Anne Roes found it on coins of Constantius II, Valentinian, Jovian, Gratianus, Valens, Arcadius, Constantine III, Jovinus, Theodosius I, Eugenius and Theodosius II, though she searched only coins at the British Museum.[1] In the ninth and tenth century the saltire was revived in Constantinople as a symbol of Christian-imperial power. Anne Roes detected the symbol, which often appears with balls in the quadrants formed by the arms of the chi-cross, in standards represented on coins of Persepolis, and she suggested that early Christians endorsed itssolar symbolism as appropriate to Christ, and suggested "although it cannot be proved, that in the white saltire of St. Andrew we still have a reminiscence of the old standard of the Persepolitan kingdom."[2]

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Let me try to diminish the confusion for a change.

A Burgundian cross may have the shape of an X, but it's not a cross. In the late Middle Ages, the symbol of the duchy of Burgundy was a firesteel (Schlageisen in German, vuurijzer in Dutch). This is a piece of iron used for making sparks near tinder in order to start a fire. The firesteel is bent so that it can be put on two fingers and resembles a "B" (hence its attraction to the Burgundians). The firesteel was at first accompanied by two sparks and some stars, later by four sparks and a changing number of stars. The title of Duke of Burgundy was claimed by the house of Habsburg. They used the device on their coins of the remaining Burgundy lands (mainly the Southern and Northern Netherlands, but also the Franche Comté). However, the centre of the device was often covered by a coat of arms. In time, the sparks came to be seen as a cross and the firesteel was forgotten, so that the term "Burgundy cross" came about. In Dutch, it is also referred to (equally wrong) as a stokkenkruis - cross of branches. The four sparks are symmetrical. They should not overlap.

Note that it can be used heraldically only by the house of Habsburg for their Burgundy possessions. However, there is also derived use from the chain of the order of the golden fleece. In such uses, the B is often visible, though. It is highly unlikely that the Habsburgs would have used a Burgundian symbol on their Austrian coins. The reform of 1753 had nothing to do with these lands and the Burgundy title (duke) was lower than the Austrian title (archduke). Burgundy was a dependency of Austria, not the other way around.

The saltire or cross saltire is well explained in your quotes. It is a Christian symbol, used in heraldry (more commonly called a Saint Andrew's cross). English speakers love to use the term for any X-formed symbol, blame for which IMHO rests with Peter Seaby, who called the Elizabethan minter's mark a saltire. This may or may not have been correct, but you should remember that in Elizabethan times, X meant "this is my mark". Illiterate people, but also those who wished to remain incognito would sign with an X. A mint master of (presumably low) noble rank may just have wanted to use it to hide the fact that he actually had to (yuck spit) work for money. On German feudal coins, the saltire is used AFAIK only in combination with and as an attribute of Saint Andrew (e.g. Brunswick-Lüneburg). Anyway, the important thing to note is that the cross saltire is a symbol without any specific meaning.

The Roman X, by contrast has a very specific meaning. It unequivocally means 10. This number is also central to the reforms of 1753: the thaler was devalued to 10 in a mark of Cologne. The X is an indication of this new standard. On some coins, it is even put as X. e f M (X. eine feine Mark - 1/10th of a mark of Cologne fine). Therefore, it is unlikely to mean something different on the coins of Austria.

Unfortunately, numismatic authors have a tendency to copy each other's speculations. It is very hard to break through such chains of quotes, even when they are obviously wrong. Even though I don't know of any contemporary document that specifies what the X is, the idea that it means 10 is accepted by Dutch professional numismatists I know. I seem to remember having seen it in writing also, but my memory has seen better days.

Peter

[Figleaf]

Got it! Here's a quote from Auf Heller und Pfennig, by Herbert Rittmann ISBN 3870451173, page 60:

Oesterreich versah die Stücke mit einem »X« in der Umschrift (für »zehn«), die anderen Münzstände benützten Aufschriften wie »NACH DEN CONVENTIONSFUSS«, »CONVENTIONSMUENZE«, »X« oder »ZEHN EINE FEINE MARK«, »CONVENTIONSTHALER«

Austria inscribed the pieces with an X in the legend (meaning "ten"), the other coin authorities used texts such as "NACH DEN CONVENTIONSFUSS", "CONVENTIONSMUENZE", "X" or "ZEHN EINE FEINE MARK", "CONVENTIONSTHALER".

Peter

[Austrokiwi]

Well thank you.  This one is going in the files.  As you say Austhors can repeat others mistakes: I am sure Clara Semple based her statements on Broome, as she included tables from Broomes paper in her book,  Some where I have Ms. Semples email address if I find it I will contact her for further clarification.  Both Semple and Broome refer to the Bavarian Convention as the reason for the "Saltire".

[translateltd]

And thanks for clarifying the weight question - I hadn't clicked that we were talking about the pure silver weight only, excluding the alloy. 

The idea of using an X to indicate a tenth of a Cologne Mark certainly sounds plausible, although in the absence of original legislation defining the design elements it will still be open to argument by those who choose to believe otherwise, I'm sure!

[Austrokiwi]

I did some more digging and:

http://www.khm.at/system2E.html?/staticE/page340.html

[Austrokiwi]

I did some further digging the Kunsthistoriches Museum ( housing a collection that was started by some of the Habsburgs) also refers to the "X"  as a st Andrews cross.