Author Topic: China, cash 1068-1085 seal script, Heng (Hengzhou, Hunan) Imitation?  (Read 5367 times)

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Offline Figleaf

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Not identified on numismatique.com. Can we help?

3.85 grams, 29 mm

Peter

« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 04:03:08 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

akona20

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 06:03:58 AM »
Two bao (cash) in seal script. That's all at present.

translateltd

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 12:42:24 PM »
Characters clumsy and in a mix of styles - looks suspicious to me.  Fantasy or charm?  I can't make out a "two" there.


akona20

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 02:21:06 PM »
Bottom character on the left coin is seal script for two. Seal script can look clumsey but it is all in seal script so this narrows things.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 02:56:29 PM »
I think this is Peng Xinwei plate XLVIII-5, Remmelts 60, seal script cash (yuan pao) for emperor Sheng Tsung, era Hsi-Ning (Xī Níng) - 1068-1077.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 03:31:53 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

akona20

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 03:15:33 PM »
yes absolutely. Bloody seal script.

translateltd

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 10:07:32 PM »
Look carefully at the drawing and the photo, though - only the bottom character on the coin is in seal script, the rest are in "plain" form, but are look clumsily executed.  I've dealt with character-based languages for long enough to tell the difference :-)

akona20

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 10:23:34 PM »
You are correct martin, my eyes can't really differentiate much in this character presentationt at present. Some I can see and some I can't.

translateltd

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 11:31:36 PM »
For all that, though, I think the type is the same as the "all-seal" coin in the drawing, so the attribution would be correct as far as that goes.  We "just" need to track down whether there are genuine mix-n-match coins with that obverse legend and reverse character.  I'll try and check my refs for this later on too.


Offline andyg

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 11:43:37 PM »
Here is another representation of the Cash Peter found,
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2012, 01:02:39 AM »
Bad eyesight can be an advantage. I see things other people don't see. The right character looks like an angry ghost's head to me ;D

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Prosit

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2012, 01:12:13 AM »
Looks like a bikini top to me  :o I guess it all depends on what you bring to the viewing  ;)
Dale


Bad eyesight can be an advantage. I see things other people don't see. The right character looks like an angry ghost's head to me ;D

Peter

translateltd

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 11:29:33 AM »
Bottom character is just "yuan" (read "gen" or "gan" in Japanese), meaning "start" or "origin"  "Yuanbao" is very common on Song dynasty coins rather than "tongbao" which is standard on more recent issues.  I've found the "all-seal" character version (as per drawings in replies 4 and 9 above) in my 1987 Japanese catalogue, which includes many Chinese cash types; however, the "plain" character version of the same coin (AD 1068) does not match Peter's original, so we're back to square one on that one.  The top and right characters are totally different, so we need to start again, unfortunately ...


translateltd

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 12:00:09 PM »
I've combed my 1980s Japanese catalogue covering Japan, China, Korea, Annam and a whole heap of fantasy issues for all coins with a "seal yuan" at bottom, and none match the original piece shown.  Here's a scan showing the plain-character and seal-character versions of the AD 1068 coin in the line drawing, to show it doesn't match the original, as per my last msg:


Offline Figleaf

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 2
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2012, 12:28:53 PM »
Thanks for your considerable trouble, Martin. Much appreciated. I would dearly like to see what you are seeing, but I don't. My tired eyes see four characters in seal script, with some doubt on the left character only. My understanding is that the shape of the characters in seal script is more variable than that in other scripts, as it is a freehand drawing. Can you confirm?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.