Author Topic: China, Qian You Bao Qian (Tangut) (1170-1193)  (Read 4210 times)

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Offline Figleaf

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China, Qian You Bao Qian (Tangut) (1170-1193)
« on: April 17, 2012, 01:57:05 AM »
Our French-speaking friends have wrestled with this coin and are asking for our opinion. Theirs is:

Cash in the name of emperor Qian You (乾祐), era Renzong (1139-1194), 3.10 gram, 2.9 mm. Paris says:

There are also coins with xiaxia text "Qian You baoqian 乾祐寳錢" (valuable money of the era Qian You". The bronze coins with inscriptions in Chinese are rare, those in iron more common. Coins in the xixia language are bronze

Peter
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 04:05:08 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

akona20

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 3
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 02:23:18 PM »
If someone can trace the characters I might have a chance. With these eyes and the colour, no chance now.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 3
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 03:55:10 PM »
HTH

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline pingu

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 3
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 09:09:43 PM »
Hello,

I have looked in 4 catalogues.:
1. David Hartill, Cast Chinese Coins
2. Frederik Schjöth, Chinese Currency
3. Dr. Ting Fu-Pao, A Catalog of Ancient Chinese Coins
4. another Chinese catalogue I thinks he is called:  Zhongguo Guqian Daji

In none of the catalogues one of your coins (Unidentified cash coin1 - 9)  is registered.
Very similar pieces: Some have prices of more than 1000 US $ in the catalogue.

But: at least one character is written always slightly different.

I have with the pieces of stomachaches....

Greetings from Germany - today sunny
pingu

Offline weepio

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Re: Unidentified cash coin 3
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2012, 10:56:03 AM »
I believe this coin could be:
Xixia Dynasty (1032-1227)
Emperor Ren Zong (1139-1193)
Qian You Bao Qian (in Tangut writing) (1170-1193)
Extremely rare
Should be about 26 mm
I have no coins to compare it with.

Offline bgriff99

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Re: China, Qian You Bao Qian (Tangut) (1170-1193)
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2014, 12:19:28 PM »
Peter, the inscription is for the reign title Qian You 1170-93, written in Tangut script.   The original coin however is 24mm.   They are a favorite for making fakes, but this one is another fantasy at the wrong size.

This time I have a genuine one to show you.   Weight is 3.8g by my homemade balance scale.  It's thick in the rims and seems heavier.

Offline bgriff99

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Re: China, Qian You Bao Qian (Tangut) (1170-1193)
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2014, 12:33:38 PM »
PS, in Zhongguo Guqian Daji this is on page 893.    It is coin 1685, page 139 of Ting fu pao.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: China, Qian You Bao Qian (Tangut) (1170-1193)
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2014, 01:14:40 PM »
When comparing the amazing original with the coin originally posted, you should remember that they were struck in several metals. As the thread contains an original, I'll leave it here, rather than move it to the fakes board.

Is the lip within the hole of your coin because it was at the top of the stake when the coins were filed?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline bgriff99

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Re: China, Qian You Bao Qian (Tangut) (1170-1193)
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2014, 08:34:32 PM »
Regarding the lip in the centerhole, that and any other thing even slightly not perfect on a coin of this value makes the owner a bit uneasy.   The edge is very rough from corrosion, like an iron coin, because it was buried on a string.   Both obverse and reverse show where another coin was against it.   That explains the thick red oxide on the obverse.   It is a low oxidation state mineral.   The metal looks like poor quality copper, but I can't find where anybody has analyzed one.

No coins of this period were made in much quantity and many are somewhat crude.   The iron rod is the customary method but not absolute, nor the perfection of its squareness.   The centerhole is still mostly punched out.   There was a coin I had posted, or maybe an alternate, that had a slight octagonal shape to the punched out hole, from the sharp edged areas having become worn down.   Remember that rod is hand forged and unless a mint was extremely concerned about making perfect coins, it would not be given a lot of care.    It had to clear out enough to allow stringing, and be of a shape to keep the coins from rotating while being filed.    A cast iron rod of that thickness would be prone to break.   The thickness of this coin suggests it would have had a lot of flash, so filing would have been of just a few coins in a bunch rather than a couple hundred at once.

The centerhole is something looked at for indications of being fake.   Recent looking filemarks are a giveaway.   Alternately so much flash the coin could not be strung.

I have only 3 pieces using the Tangut script.   One is a fake.   Here again is the inherent problem with rare coins, that you can't get a lot of familiarity with how they should look beforehand.   I acquired all three 20 or more years ago, by mail order, from paper lists mailed out showing rubbings.   The one fake was from a dealer in Macao who turned out to be literally the factory outlet of forgers.   And I could see much that he offered had to not be genuine, so I should have never gotten anything from him at all.   My pencil notes in Ding fubao indicate he had pretty much the whole slate of Western Xia rarities on offer.   The others were from a scrupulously honest and knowledgeable Chinese college age guy, who had originally come from Sinkiang, and made a once per year visit back there to visit family, and hunted down good coins.