Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of UK"

[<k>]

Parent topic:  Milestones in the decimal coinage of UK


The parent topic (above) gives an overview of the coinage of the UK since decimalisation. Please post any comments, questions or corrections here.

[FosseWay]

I'd never noticed those changes in the 5p before -- fascinating. Did they come about at the same time as the wording change (i.e. 1982) or are there some NEW PENCE coins with the revised thistle and crown or FIVE PENCE coins with the old ones?

[<k>]

I'd never noticed those changes in the 5p before -- fascinating. Did they come about at the same time as the wording change (i.e. 1982)

Yes.

or are there some NEW PENCE coins with the revised thistle and crown or FIVE PENCE coins with the old ones?

Not to my knowledge. Next I will post the differences between the older and newer reverses of the fifty pence, which are even more extensive.

[<k>]

I still remember excitedly receiving my new UK BU set from the Royal Mint in 1982. It was the first year that the word "NEW" had been removed from the legends, and there was a new denomination, an innovative and attractively designed 20 pence coin to enjoy too.

I sat down with the set on my knee and compared the new reverses to some existing old ones from change. It became clear to me that the reverse designs of the new 50p  and 5p had been extensively amended. In those days I knew nobody else who collected coins, so there was nobody I could talk to about it. I assumed that anybody else who had the set would have noticed it. Afer all these years, my memories of discovering those differences are still clear. However, in all that time I have never heard them referred to in print, in coin forums, or anywhere on the internet, which is quite surprising when I think about it. Surely I can't be the only one who has ever noticed these differences?

[FosseWay]

Thinking about it, I was wrong to say I'd never noticed them. Looking back, I think I noticed them subconsciously, and quite a lot later than 1982. I didn't have access to BU sets in the early to mid-80s (10p/week pocket money only goes so far  ), and as you'll no doubt remember, there were no 5ps issued for circulation between 1981 and 1986 inclusive. But when the 1987-9 issues appeared in circulation, I remember them having a sense about them of being different beyond the use of the word FIVE.

[FosseWay]

I've just browsed your original topics about the proposed changes to UK coins in 1985 and 1994 -- thanks for those, they're very well summarised. I remember seeing both documents at the time, and in fact contributed to the consultation on the 1994 one. The letter I wrote to the Royal Mint surfaced while I was packing everything up to move house; unfortunately it has sunk again now I've moved. It's probably in the same place as all the paraphernalia for the Maundy money -- I've found the coins but not the documentation. I suspect there's a folder with coin paperwork in it in some box.

Anyway, in 1985 I remember in particular the option of having a '3d bit' 5p coin and thought that was the best option. I dislike our 5p; it's just that little bit too small and is easily dropped, will fall out of wallets if the zip isn't quite done up and doesn't behave well in vending machines. The same applies but more so to all the similar sized coins in use before the euro/before inflation made them redundant (dishonourable mention to the NL 10c and the N/SE/DK 10 öre/øre). I have less of a problem with small coppers (e.g. the UK halfpenny and the 1 and 2 eurocent) because in practice one pays with them less, generally only receiving them. You don't have to guddle around looking for them, and you don't tend to use them in parking meters etc. (I realise that begs the question of why they exist. That has been discussed at length elsewhere and I'm not going there.) According to your analysis, one of the options was to have an even smaller 5p than the one we've got . (As an aside, I'm in the process of scanning my collection and at the same time noting diameter and weight in my records. I've done about 20% of my collection so far and find that the smallest generally accepted diameter for a coin in the late 20th/21st century is 16mm, which is more or less the size of the 5p.)

On the coppers, I'm not really very clear why the RM has never resized them, when it's been happy to resize the 'silver'. Changing the coppers would result in far fewer problems/expenses for industry, as very few vending machines accept them anyway. AFAIK only the Royal Mail would be affected. Now we've got as far as we have, I tend to agree that there's no point, and we're better off waiting until the consensus appears to get rid of them, but they could easily have reduced either both or just the 2p in the 1980s or 90s.

Another option could have been to get rid of the 10p piece. Inflation has led to the 20p becoming the base payment level for things like phone calls (not that many people use phone boxes nowadays) and parking. This would also have dealt with the anomaly of the 10p being bigger than the 20p, and of it being rather large for its value (although it's more or less the same size as the Swedish krona, which is worth more or less the same). It's unusual not to have a 0.10 denomination when you have 0.05 and 0.20/0.25, but I think there are some precedents.

[<k>]

I've just browsed your original topics about the proposed changes to UK coins in 1985 and 1994 -- thanks for those, they're very well summarised. I remember seeing both documents at the time, and in fact contributed to the consultation on the 1994 one. The letter I wrote to the Royal Mint surfaced while I was packing everything up to move house;

How so? You sent it and you didn't? Quantum letter-writing! 

Anyway, in 1985 I remember in particular the option of having a '3d bit' 5p coin and thought that was the best option.

Me too!

I dislike our 5p;

I like it. I think it's a very smart looking coin, and just the right size for what it's worth these days - though it should be in bronze and the 1p and 2p done away with, but you said you weren't getting into that again. 

According to your analysis, one of the options was to have an even smaller 5p than the one we've got .

Yes, that would have been silly.

On the coppers, I'm not really very clear why the RM has never resized them, when it's been happy to resize the 'silver'.

No idea. Perhaps they're less used than the other coins?

Another option could have been to get rid of the 10p piece...It's unusual not to have a 0.10 denomination when you have 0.05 and 0.20/0.25, but I think there are some precedents.

Don't like that idea at all. A gap in the denominations? Two of your hated 5p coins instead? Don't tell me the 10p isn't used.

This would also have dealt with the anomaly of the 10p being bigger than the 20p

That's not an issue with anyone because the 20p is in a different format from the 10p: the 20p is seven-sided and the 10p is round. Now, the Australian two dollars being smaller than the dollar is an issue, because they are both yellow and round. But I've never been to Australia, so it's not a problem for me, and I'd better not criticise Australia anyway, or akona20 will hit me with his walking stick. 

[FosseWay]

Even in 1994, I had the technology required to print two copies of the letter -- one to send, one to keep! 

I'm not necessarily advocating ditching the 10p -- I simply said it was an option. It is, however, an option that has been chosen in practice by Sainsbury's, where IME it's rare to get 10p and 50p coins in change from automatic checkouts. To give change of 95p, for example, they will generally give four 20p and three 5p coins.

I tend to agree that 5, 10 and 20 is the best option, but if we must lose one, it were better the 10p than the 20p. You would end up having to give three 5ps in change from time to time, as you say, but with no 20 (as before 1982, or in pre-euro (West) Germany) you'd have to give a maximum of four 10p coins. I dislike how you end(ed) up with huge quantities of 1c coins in the US, 10Pf coins in Germany and 1 krona coins here due to the lack of a 0.02, 0.20 or 2 denomination.

[andyg]

How so? You sent it and you didn't? Quantum letter-writing! 

I'm surprised you were not taught quantum letter writing at school - It's on the curriculum.

[Prosit]

With no disrespect intended...she never changed hair style.
Dale

[<k>]

Well, I've now finished my topic, and it took me a lot longer than I expected. I did spot some anomalies and varieties along the way that I hadn't noticed before, so I did learn something. I have always been primarily focused on design, and I expect that came across clearly, as I included some diversions that others might not have thought to include, which I hope made the topic sufficiently different from others you might have read.

While writing the topic, I made copious use of our member Tony Clayton's well known site to help me navigate my way through all the varieties of 40 years, and I linked to more than a few of his images too. His web site gives an extensive and comprehensive overview of British coinage, and it is well worth a visit. Click on the link below to have a look:

Coins of the UK



Our member UK Decimal + has also written a topic on decimalisation, and I sneaked quite a few looks as I was writing mine, in order to make sure I had all my facts right. Click on the link below to have a look at his topic:

£p - Decimalisation in the UK - "D-Day"



Finally, it's worth having at look at some of the many other topics in the decimal board, so have a click on the link below:

Decimal coins board

[Spyke63]

The question regarding the Ironside designs' for the UK decimal coins is true of any great design talent.  Christopher was not only asked to enter two design competitions (both of which he won);  but he submitted three design themes for each competition.  When he started on the designs he had to allow for the text "NEW PENCE" to change to, for example "FIVE PENCE",  post the transition period.  Consequently, he had to design knowing that the text would change and made design provision on each coin accordingly.  That makes it a total of 8 designs per coin (excluding the innumeral design changes requested by the RMAC!).

[<k>]

That makes it a total of 8 designs per coin (excluding the innumeral design changes requested by the RMAC!).

So did Mr Ironside make the changes from "NEW PENCE" to "5 PENCE" prior to decimalisation - or closer to 1982? And who drew the re-designed Britannia (50p) and thistle (5p) of 1982?

[<k>]

Consequently, he had to design knowing that the text would change and made design provision on each coin accordingly.  That makes it a total of 8 designs per coin (excluding the innumeral design changes requested by the RMAC!).

So, going from what Spyke63 says (my italics), it looks as though the 1982 design changes were prepared prior to decimalisation in 1971 and stored in readiness for the dropping of the "NEW" from the legends. Whether Mr Ironside prepared only finished sketches, or also provided plaster models, for these amendments, prior to decimalisation, is unclear. Presumably the Mint would not have prepared dies for the amended designs so far in advance, so perhaps someone else modelled Mr Ironside's amended designs.

[<k>]

I remember pondering over why there were never any coins in circulation dated 1972

Is it a fact that no UK coins dated 1972 were issued? I can imagine that the stocks of decimal coins built up in preparation for decimalisation in 1971 were so large that no new coins were needed in 1972.